Mass Effect: Legendary Edition Page 27

  • LastAngryMan 8 Jun 2021 14:44:14 86 posts
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    A couple of hours in to ME 2 and a stark reminder of how much they "dumbed down" the RPG elements of ME1. It's really disappointing the way they seem to have got rid of (or at least chose not to expose) weapon stats, instead you need to read a paragraph of text to figure out what gun is better.

    Also, still early days as still on Omega, but the combat doesn't seem to have the range and verticality of 1. Rooms are smaller, less variance in height, feels like fighting in a warehouse room most of the time. The gunplay feels chunkier and more satisfying though for sure.

    Edited by LastAngryMan at 14:44:33 08-06-2021
  • Mola_Ram 8 Jun 2021 14:47:57 26,050 posts
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    Meh, it's not like the guns in ME1 had a whole bunch of stats to look at. There were only 3, and the naming conventions (just adding increasing numbers onto the end) were... not terribly exciting to me.
  • richyroo 8 Jun 2021 14:59:57 646 posts
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    Yeah these "RPG elements" in ME1 were just an annoyance. I am glad they supposedly got dumbed down, the games became much more fun because of it.
  • LastAngryMan 8 Jun 2021 15:17:12 86 posts
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    Yeah it definitely wasn't like ME1 was diablo or anything, but it seems weird to me still; when I pick up a gun how do I know 1) if it's actually better than what I had and 2) how much better is it. On ME1, it gave me some numbers so it was there in black and white. In ME2, I have to read some waffle. Same with the ammo upgrades - it's cool to know what a specific upgrade in ME1 does X% extra damage. Can see how it streamlines things but feels like a little something was lost to me.
  • LastAngryMan 8 Jun 2021 15:19:12 86 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    Meh, it's not like the guns in ME1 had a whole bunch of stats to look at. There were only 3, and the naming conventions (just adding increasing numbers onto the end) were... not terribly exciting to me.
    Agree the naming conventions were daft and you just ended up with a whole bunch of weapons that were totally forgettable. Less weapons in ME2 is definitely better.
  • Psiloc 8 Jun 2021 15:39:45 6,345 posts
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    I really got sick of being given so many weapons in ME1. It added nothing to the game for me as it was plainly obvious which guns were better so it was just an exercise in tedium remembering to go through and re-equip different members of your squad and then go and sell or scrap 200+ redundant weapons thanks to the limited inventory.

    ME2 = fewer weapons that are primarily about different feel. Give me that any day
  • Darth_Flibble 8 Jun 2021 16:18:20 5,510 posts
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    While ME1 RPG stats where not indepth, instead of improving them they just gutted them. Also to make appeal to the gamer that just wants to shoot things. For example fallout new vegas had a lot of RPG elements but bethesda dumbed down fallout 4 (and of course you had people going but but its better shoota)

    Its like the planet exploring - yeah the vehicle didn't work well with steep mountains and it copy and paste buildings but they removed it all that instead of fixing the issue. Then they come up with planet scanning, utter shit, nice one bioware
  • RobTheRobber 8 Jun 2021 16:44:28 121 posts
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    I love how ME1's weapons have improved in the LE. I mean, in the original game there were four different weapons with three different stats, and that plasticky pew pew was hardly satisfying. Now there are at least a few differences between different models, and they feel punchier now... more like guns.

    The feel is still not on ME2 levels, but thanks to the overheating system instead of that ammo nonsense they're overall more fun than ME2's now.

    Edited by RobTheRobber at 16:45:17 08-06-2021
  • Technoishmatt 8 Jun 2021 18:20:53 5,336 posts
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    I picked a couple at start and never experimented. Then bought the spectre weapons as the stats were so much higher and never looked back.

    My vanguard spectre shotgun just blasts stuff away.

    With my barrier specialisation i have like 2000 hit points, and barrier is pretty much always ready to go again. Just need to remember to revive team mates as i pick the biotic/tech specialists and they are weedy! If a geth destroyer rushes, and lift/singularity is recharging, then they are toast.

    Edited by Technoishmatt at 18:22:49 08-06-2021
  • Technoishmatt 8 Jun 2021 18:20:54 5,336 posts
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    Post deleted
  • Baihu1983 9 Jun 2021 06:53:05 14,298 posts
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    Lift then throw is very satisfying in 3
  • richyroo 9 Jun 2021 12:00:08 646 posts
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    Baihu1983 wrote:
    Lift then throw is very satisfying in 3
    Everything Biotic is satisfying in 3. Just hearing those loud biotic explosions never gets old, the way they reverberate is awesome powerful. I hardly even fire a shot in 3, just fling warp and throw out my hands over and over with a Singularity from Liara thrown in for good measure!
  • RobTheRobber 9 Jun 2021 21:46:20 121 posts
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    WARNING: all of this is spoilers. Don't read if you don't like spoilers.

    Over all the years of playing these games, I'm trying to pinpoint what I like and dislike about them.

    The biggest thing in my opinion is the change of direction between 1 and 2. Gameplay-wise, 1 is an RPG with cover shooter elements. 2 and 3 are cover shooters with RPG elements.

    I kinda like ME1 combat despite its many faults. I like ME2's cover-shooter-centric nature less. I find little joy in the ME2 mechanic of hiding behind cover almost all the time. I find little joy in its repitition of the same combat scenarios again and again and again.

    I do like that ME3 allows you to be more offensive. I love that it sometimes lets you play in those multiplayer arenas instead of going through the same corridor again and again like in ME2. That said, it can get pretty chaotic especially when the stakes are higher. The fights on Earth in ME3 really highlight this. Trying to run around is seriously hampered by the game's cover mechanics that make you snap to cover whenever you come even close. The hotter it gets, the more problems I run into.

    The fact that a keyboard has only 5 keys makes it even worse. ME3's most annoying enemy is the Banshee, and ME3's final "boss fight" is spamming Banshees at you just to make you have a bad time without gratification. This is not good by any standards.

    So let's leave the gameplay part aside. Let's talk story, lore, dialogue, etc. ME1 is a sci-fi epic. Lately, I've increasingly come to the conclusion that ME1 is sci-fi novel while ME2-3 are more comic book. ME1 spends a great lot of time building its world, establishing the asari, turians, salarians, elcor, volus etc. It tries to build up an universe and fill in the gaps, and does so admirably. Citadel, Reapers, Conduits, Cipher, Saren, Garrus, Liara, Wrex, Ashley, Tali, all the world building and character creation is done in this one game.

    Fast forward to ME2 and it's more comic book centric. Most of ME2 doesn't care much about sci-fi epic, it's more about badass characters. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but imo ME2 overdoes badass character tropes. Garrus is a badass, Samara is a badass, Jack is a badass in her way, Aria is super cringe badass, Miranda is badass, Zaeed... you get the point.

    I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm just saying it went from sci-fi novel to comic book.

    When it comes to world building: what did ME2 bring? It brought the Vorcha who are laughable comic book monster goons, it brought the Collectors who are kinda ok I guess, and it brought the Shadow Broker who also is a comic book monster now.

    It brought us the giant Terminator who is fed by human goo, and... the less said about this, the better. It is pure comic book stuff.

    The thing is, I don't revile anyone for liking this sort of stuff. It's not like it's inherently bad. But I miss the epic sci-fi shit that ME1 gave me. And I lament that ME1 was the single one Mass Effect game with a good main story.
  • Mola_Ram 9 Jun 2021 22:44:10 26,050 posts
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    ME1 had a good main story. It was just all the other stories that were a bit shit.

    ME2 also had a good main story (give or take a giant robot), it's just that it is a different story. One about getting people in a team together and developing their loyalty, to face a mission with impossible odds. The main story is their story. It might not be the story you wanted, but things aren't bad just because they're not exactly what you want.

    As for the combat... meh, like what you like. I still think the combat of the first game is janky as hell; if ME2 is just "hide behind cover and pew pew", then the first is "just hide... oh there's no cover, wait there's cover over there ok Garrus run over there no wait don't equip your shotgun, wait why are you running in circles, ok Garrus is dead I guess I'll use the cover, oh wait it doesn't work now I'm dead". I know what I prefer.
  • LastAngryMan 9 Jun 2021 22:53:40 86 posts
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    @RobTheRobber I'm about 10 hours in to ME2 and coming to the same conclusions. There's definitely something missing over the way ME1 built up it's story. Small things like the way locations are introduced, the chatter from your team mates in missions. The combat is not as varied, even while it is a lot less janky.

    I also think that ME2s story is a slow burner - ME1 builds up momentum and urgency from the first mission, whereas I seem to remember the best moments of 2 taking a bit longer to emerge. I'm interested to see how/if my opinion changes by the end of the game.

    So far though, LE has made me appreciate ME1 so much more, and tempered some of the affection I held for 2.
  • RobTheRobber 10 Jun 2021 00:50:32 121 posts
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    @Mola_Ram

    Maybe we disagree about this, but I don't think about getting the team together as the main story. There are 2 parts to this, A} getting the team together and B} TIM and the Collectors etc.

    I love the getting the team together part. ME2 does that amazingly well. I love Mordin, I love Jack etc. Still it feels like I'm playing a collection of short stories, vs playing one sci-fi epic in ME1. No judgement here so far, both have their place.

    It's just that while ME1 maybe didn't have that much time for its characters, it was fantastic at telling a sci-fi epic.

    Much can be said about what's actually the main story of ME2. You could say its main story are its characters, and yeah ok, it does a great job at that. But at the same time, you could ask how much it does about progressing the main storyline with the Reapers etc., and it does nothing about that.

    The so-called "main story" of ME2 is a laughable excuse for nothing. For all the good ME2 does with its characters, in terms of progressing the main Mass Effect storyline it simply does nothing at all.


    Edited by RobTheRobber at 00:50:59 10-06-2021
  • Nanocrystal 10 Jun 2021 03:17:46 2,520 posts
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    @RobTheRobber I agree with 99% of what you've written, particularly about ME2 being more comic bookish in tone and ME1 being a bit more "serious" sci-fi. But the argument that ME2 is less of an RPG than ME1 doesn't hold much water for me. Sure there are a lot fewer stats to choose between when levelling up in the sequels but that's about it. For me the RPG mechanics feel pretty consistent across the trilogy, and are more about the dialogue and story choices than stats and combat mechanics.
  • Nanocrystal 10 Jun 2021 03:19:27 2,520 posts
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    LastAngryMan wrote:
    So far though, LE has made me appreciate ME1 so much more, and tempered some of the affection I held for 2.
    That's funny, total opposite for me. Though I do still absolutely love them both.
  • RobTheRobber 12 Jun 2021 01:01:26 121 posts
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    @Nanocrystal

    I do agree that much of the RPG stuff is kept over the trilogy, like the choices. It even stuck to an oldschool rigid class system that games like Skyrim were abandoning at the time.

    However, some things that I'd call RPG elements were lost. One is freedom of movement and exploration. Even if you don't want to do it, you have the option to just fly to wherever you want, land and drive around. I didn't do it too much myself, but just having the option gives me a feeling of agency and freedom that I've come to expect from RPGs. ME2 just deleted that unceremoniously.

    Kind of related to that, not 100% sure how much that relates to being RPG, but anyway: ME1 goes to great lengths to interconnect its locations, making moving between them part of the experience to make it feel more real/organic/whatever. E.g. if you want to leave the Citadel, you go through C-Sec, take the elevator (yeah I know, not everyone was a huge fan of that) to the docks, approach the Normandy, go through decon, and then you're aboard but the Normandy is still in the docks. You leave as soon as you choose a destination on the star map. In ME2, you approach a transit station, select Normandy, boom cutscene of Normandy leaving the Citadel.
    There's this whole Mako thing of reaching another location on the same planet by actually driving there. ME2/3 would just replace that with a cutscene.
    And onboard the Normandy itself, ME1 doesn't have loading screens either. It's all one place (or maybe 2 places connected by an elevator). ME2 and 3 are more like "cut the crap, loading screen, done".
    Again, not saying this is necessarily an RPG thing, but in my opinion it does support the RPG-typical feeling of living/being in actual places and moving between them.

    As for combat, ME1 has a "RPG trying to also be a shooter" feel to me. It does so with mixed results, and in best RPG tradition the action is janky AF. ME2 makes a huge difference, it definitely feels like EA infused Bioware with people who knew a thing or two about making action games. When it comes to balance between space magic and guns, ME2 clearly shifts it towards guns; that makes it more of a shooter, but I concede that doesn't necessarily mean less RPG.

    Well, one other thing is selling loot. Being able to sell the crap you found to afford shiny new things is such a main staple of RPGs to me that I miss it badly in ME2/3. It never stopped to bug me that I can't even earn a single credit by selling the megatons of resources I've gathered.

    So yeah, I do agree that in some core aspects ME2 is no less RPG than ME1, but I do think that in some regards it is.
  • Technoishmatt 12 Jun 2021 01:20:03 5,336 posts
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    If ME1 didnt have the mako sections, the game would be like 10%! I think I have spent most of my time riding around trying to go up mountains :)
  • Nanocrystal 12 Jun 2021 02:11:35 2,520 posts
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    @RobTheRobber I agree with pretty much all your points. I also didn't like the way they replaced the elevator rides in ME1 with dull, generic loading screens in ME2, like you said this really reduces the sense that the Normandy, Citadel, etc. are continuous spaces. Fortunately that's less of an issue on PS5 with the super-fast loading times. Along with the removal of the Mako and inventory/weapons stats, it feels like this change was a direct response to fan criticism, but they should have improved these elements, not just ripped them out.
  • Mola_Ram 12 Jun 2021 02:56:18 26,050 posts
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    I think removing the Mako stuff at least might have been because they didn't really have the resources to make it not-shit: to not only have a bunch of planets to drive around, but also to have meaningful things to do besides drive around. They probably didn't have those resources in ME1 either, but tried anyway, and felt their ambition come crashing up hard against reality.

    So in the second game it was all gone, and they focused on what they were able to do well. Fewer places to go, but with a lot more detail and depth. I understand how that might not have pleased some people, but I didn't care at all.
  • RobTheRobber 12 Jun 2021 03:10:43 121 posts
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    I never thought the Mako was shit in the main missions. Trying to get over vertical mountain ranges to access some minerals sucked, but in the main missions I found the Mako parts a welcome distraction that also helped get a sense of space.

    In ME2, everything is corridor shooter sections connected by loading screens and cutscenes. I missed the Mako.
  • Baihu1983 12 Jun 2021 05:45:12 14,298 posts
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    Hack this door so we can load the next area
  • Mola_Ram 12 Jun 2021 05:58:40 26,050 posts
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    Baihu1983 wrote:
    Hack this door so we can load the next area
    I mean... is there any game from back then that didn't do stuff like that?
  • Baihu1983 12 Jun 2021 07:07:48 14,298 posts
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    I actually prefer the lift conversations.

    Anyways that's all 3 done and 3 actually has my biggest annoyance of recent gens which is forced walking sections.
    Keep thinking I'll do a full renegade play but it never happens.
  • damagedinc 12 Jun 2021 07:55:56 3,087 posts
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    Just finished one and on ME2. It is quite jarring as people said above with some of the changes. However I completly agree with mola_ram, the RPG elements were half baked in ME1 and boarding on annoyance. I personally would have loved it to refine those elements but can totally understand why they went the direction it did.

    Back in the day I rushed through ME1 when ME2 came out which is when the series was brought to my attention.

    Playing it again now and having taken my time, it really does have a special charm. I think mainly because it reminds me of KOTOR which I also loved.

    Love this series so much, shame as I never played andromeda due to the reactions. So much more they could do with this series hopefully they can return to past glory. Wonder how well this bundle sold, I thought they were working on a new one? We had a trailer with liara of I remember rightly.
  • Baihu1983 12 Jun 2021 08:19:00 14,298 posts
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    New ME coming but nothing since the teaser.


    You should give Andromeda a chance. It's dirt cheap nowadays and it's an alright game.
  • Vice.Destroyer 13 Jun 2021 10:06:22 7,424 posts
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    I missed that announcement. There is a new Mass Effect coming?
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