The Eurogamer HDTV Guide Page 268

  • Dougs 14 Nov 2020 22:29:31 96,721 posts
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    As someone who went from a 2008 plasma, the difference is night and day. Honestly, the LG OLEDs are absolutely stunning.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 14 Nov 2020 23:11:05 4,121 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    As someone who went from a 2008 plasma, the difference is night and day. Honestly, the LG OLEDs are absolutely stunning.
    The talk of weird dimming situations (and IIRC there are some talks of weird motion stuff too) is still offputting at the price tags, particularly as OLED seems the logical next step up. Probably not going to be getting one this year either way but the choice feels more difficult than it should at this stage.
  • fontgeeksogood 15 Nov 2020 04:41:02 11,269 posts
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    You don't deserve a nice telly anyway
  • Dougs 15 Nov 2020 08:04:41 96,721 posts
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    The OLEDs aren't perhaps as good at motion for sports but everything else more than makes up for it. It's only a marginal difference anyway imo.
  • ozthegweat 15 Nov 2020 09:52:29 2,708 posts
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    This year's OLED panels from LGD (e.g. used in LG's X models) have 120Hz BFI, which should help with sports and motion resolution in general. The only drawback is BFI makes the image darker.

    Sony OLEDs are the king of motion resolution though, with a 120Hz BFI mode that has barely any brightness loss. They don't insert entire black frames, but black rectangles.

    Edited by ozthegweat at 09:59:26 15-11-2020
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 15 Nov 2020 10:49:38 4,121 posts
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    I don't watch sports so if most issues are in that field then things are a bit better. BFI as a concept seems odd to me, how does insering black frames every 120th of a second improve motion? Is this because broadcast still tends to be 25/30 so otherwise you get each frame doubled thus looking jerkier? I might have to do a bit more reasing up on the non gaming side of the equation (in the past whatever TV has been best forngaming purposes has always sufficed forbother uses for me).

    @fontgeeksogood Perhaps not, but 2020 is doing a good enough job of being a financial wrecking ball and assisting with that anyway...
  • ozthegweat 15 Nov 2020 12:15:00 2,708 posts
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    @One_Vurfed_Gwrx Cinema projectors (at least the old ones, I don't know how the digital ones work) work by projecting a frame for a certain amount of time, then closing the shutter of the projector to hide the transition of the film roll from that frame to the next, then reopening the shutter, projecting the new frame etc. And they do this 24x per second (24Hz). So cinema projectors have inherent BFI. A "pixel" or rather "pixel area on the projector screen" is never constantly lit.

    CRT TVs paint a frame with a beam exciting phosphor dots on the screen, starting from the top left, line by line, until it reaches the bottom right. The glowing phosphor dots fade out only to be refreshed by the beam when painting the next frame. So the pixels there also are never lit constantly.

    This tricks the brain into seeing a smooth, fluid motion. LCDs and OLEDs however show a frame for the entire time, and then (more or less instantly) switch to the next frame. All pixels are constantly lit. This is called "sample and hold". The lower the frame rate, the juddery the video appers. By inserting black frames, the brain perceives the video again as smooth and fluid. But even 60fps can profit from this technique, as fast motion appears sharper.

    120Hz BFI is better than 60Hz BFI because it allows for 60fps content (such as sports) to be displayed with the full frame rate. (Real frame 1, black frame, real frame 2 etc.). A kicked football flying across the screen is a popular example when demonstrating the benefits of BFI.

    Edited by ozthegweat at 12:17:39 15-11-2020
  • ozthegweat 15 Nov 2020 12:20:24 2,708 posts
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    Here's a demo of BFI with 30fps content:
    https://www.testufo.com/blackframes

    Sadly, even though the iPad Pro has a 120Hz display and can display scrolling with 120fps, 120fps are not supported for animations playing in the browser. But at least we get new Watch bands every 3 months 🙄

    Edited by ozthegweat at 12:23:07 15-11-2020
  • anephric 15 Nov 2020 12:31:41 4,569 posts
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    Yeah, 24 fps film is effectively 48 fps/Hz as the shutter created a black frame to help mask the transition between frames, creating the illusion of movement. Some projectors had tri-gate shutters, to sort-of give you 72 fps.

    I think OLEDs benefit more than LCDs from BFI as their response time is instant, which some sensitive people can perceive as strobing/flicker.
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 12:54:10 217 posts
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    I find 3 on blur and 4 on judder works wonderfully. I watch a lot of football too.
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 12:57:47 217 posts
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    By the way, I read about this happening but my LG CX has suddenly taken another level up in picture beauty. Think about Iím 100-150 hours in now and it seems to have settled.

    Blacks show perfectly in dark scenes. Wtf!
  • Zomoniac 15 Nov 2020 13:14:06 10,350 posts
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    What kind of room do all you CX owners have your screen in? Weíre moving in a few months so looking to pick up a TV now to take advantage of black Friday prices but Iím torn. I want a CX, but the room is going to be a big open plan space with glass walls and bifolds, full of light by design. The TV will be a few metres from the glass walls and wonít have a window direct in front of or behind it. Iím worried the low peak brightness of the OLED wonít be sufficient and Iíd be better off with a Q90T to cut through. Any advice appreciated.
  • Technoishmatt 15 Nov 2020 13:16:07 4,751 posts
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    @Zomoniac close the blinds/curtains.
  • Dirt3 15 Nov 2020 13:17:30 1,240 posts
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    What you really need is a processor that will take two of the 60Hz frames and interpolate between them to produce a fill frame. That would take quite a bit of processing power though. I guess modern day graphics cards would be up to that kind of thing, but whether the TV would stand the cost of that IDK.

    Back to the CX, I am wondering whether it is the second coming it is made out to be. At the beginning of this month I was thinking by the CX and future proof for 4K gaming for the next few years. But the CX is increasingly starting to look like it is a early adopter of some of the key technology, including HDMI 2.1 where it suffers from a reduced bandwidth and VRR which I can't really tell whether it implements properly or not. I am guessing that the next years model will really solve these issues and provide a more future proofed telly. Being an early adopter of HDMI 2.1 and the issues it potentially poses (potential bugs in the implementation) is starting to look less attractive to me.

    Still, I will see what black friday brings.
  • Zomoniac 15 Nov 2020 13:20:07 10,350 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    @Zomoniac close the blinds/curtains.
    Not happening. This will be a general use/daytime screen in the main open plan room. Thereís a garage that may get converted into a windowless cinema room where itíll be OLED or projector but this one needs to work in a bright room.
  • Cpl.Hicks 15 Nov 2020 13:39:05 78 posts
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    All flat panel displays use sample and hold to display motion not just OLEDs. 120hz BFI does help to increase perceived motion resolution but it canít really be used with HDR content as it removes too much brightness from the picture.

    With regards to bright room concerns they are still many times brighter than plasmas ever were so most content is perfectly fine in bright viewing conditions. Itís HDR though is where the best experience with OLEDís is in a darker viewing environment.

    I think most of these issues are quite nit picky and if you are coming from a mid/low range LCD youíll be amazed at the improvement.

    Edited by Cpl.Hicks at 13:39:35 15-11-2020
  • Zomoniac 15 Nov 2020 13:41:02 10,350 posts
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    Coming from a Sony XE9005. It was quite a high end LED about 3 years ago, probably doesnít compare much to the current crop.
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 13:44:40 217 posts
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    My room is quite bright with daytime sun and yes the TV has a lot of reflection but you get used to it. Using ISF bright mode helps.

    If youíre wanting to watch a movie with Dolby Vision, you might want to shut blinds and stop the sun coming in as much as you can. Still OK though.

    Most of my TV viewing is at night.
  • Cpl.Hicks 15 Nov 2020 13:44:42 78 posts
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    And the only real concern that Iím aware of with the CXís HDMI 2.1 features is the raised gamma at low frame rates with VRR. This is a hardware issue and Iíd be surprised if a fix is in place for 2021 TVs. Iíve barely noticed a difference but your mileage may vary.

    (They have a bit of judder at high frame rates with VRR but LG have promised a fix shortly)

    No TV ever had been or ever will be perfect. Like with all tech there is always something better round the corner so if you want a new TV and can afford it I say go for it 🙂
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 13:46:05 217 posts
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    Random other question, there is a bit of judder on background stuff in a couple of games. Ghost of Tsushima for example, if you stand still and look around slowly, getting quicker, I notice judder on cliffs, buildings etc.

    Only noticeable when Iím looking for it.

    On base PS4 with the 55 CX. Anyone else noticed this?
  • Cpl.Hicks 15 Nov 2020 13:58:21 78 posts
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    @Worlds itís the instant pixel response that increases perceived stutter at low ( 30fps) frame rates. The slower response of an LCD normally introduces a bit of blur that hides it somewhat. Normal and unavoidable. Some people are more sensitive than other to it.
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 14:03:27 217 posts
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    Ahh, that makes sense. Yep, I only see it if Iím looking for it.

    Can I assume the PS5 might help with this with 60fps or other tech built in?
  • Cpl.Hicks 15 Nov 2020 14:20:30 78 posts
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    Worlds wrote:
    Ahh, that makes sense. Yep, I only see it if Iím looking for it.

    Can I assume the PS5 might help with this with 60fps or other tech built in?
    Yep, the higher the frame rate the less the effect is noticeable.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 15 Nov 2020 14:54:16 4,121 posts
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    Cpl.Hicks wrote:
    All flat panel displays use sample and hold to display motion not just OLEDs. 120hz BFI does help to increase perceived motion resolution but it canít really be used with HDR content as it removes too much brightness from the picture.

    With regards to bright room concerns they are still many times brighter than plasmas ever were so most content is perfectly fine in bright viewing conditions. Itís HDR though is where the best experience with OLEDís is in a darker viewing environment.

    I think most of these issues are quite nit picky and if you are coming from a mid/low range LCD youíll be amazed at the improvement.

    Edited by Cpl.Hicks at 13:39:35 15-11-2020
    I am coming from a plasma, not sure how much difference that makes (other than knowing that even OLEDs are brighter than plasmas).

    On my PC I have an IPS LED monitor but obviously quite different usage there.
  • theguy 15 Nov 2020 14:55:27 1,005 posts
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    I'm also using a 1080p Plasma that's a decade old now and has screen burn to boot.
    I reckon it's time to upgrade but most signs do point at spending a grand to get a good experience that's comparable.
  • Worlds 15 Nov 2020 15:04:42 217 posts
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    This could go into the PS5 thread too, but I was just reading a comment from an Ďexpertí in a CX forum. He says:

    Sony really cut some corners with the PS5

    Turns out the PS5 cannot do 4k 120hz at 444 full rgb 10 bit and this is because the PS5 bandwidth from their HDMI port is 32gb and not 48gb or 40 required for full hdmi 2.1 use of the LG CX

    This is why when you get a game like Dirt 5 and Devil May Cry 5 or COD Cold war that you set it to performance mode it does show you are doing 4k 120hz but at 8 bit only in HDR

    On Series X you can output the console to do 4k 120hz natively at all times to reduce the input lag and fix screen tearing in games like Valhalla that has adaptic sync. When you run a game in HDR in PC mode on the series x at 4k 120hz it is full rgb 10 bit 444 and not like PS5 which is 4k 120hz at 8bit 422

    When you run the PS5 at 4k 60hz in HDR it does do 12 bit but at YUV 422 not rull rgb 10 bit 444

    This is why VRR is not part of their console right now even though their spec sheet on the website says it does VRR

    It also does not offer Free Sync which is really strange.
  • Britesparc 15 Nov 2020 15:07:52 2,181 posts
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    Just wanted to pop back to say thanks to everyone who offered me some TV advice a couple of pages back. I've made my mind up but a lot of it will depend on what's cheap on Black Friday 😉

    I do wish I could afford a £1000 TV though!
  • Boriska 15 Nov 2020 15:41:10 939 posts
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    I use my OLED in a bright room and it's really not a problem. The thing everyone was full of shit on before I bought mine was motion - both judder and blur are pretty poor but ranked highly - both my old Sony LCD and Panasonic Plasma handled motion better - in every other way the OLED is miles better though.
  • elstoof 15 Nov 2020 15:52:32 26,254 posts
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    Talk to me about sound bars, whatís the best way to connect everything together - just leave as normal with boxes plugged into the telly then run an optical cable to the sound bar? Or is that horrendously dated
  • theguy 15 Nov 2020 15:53:47 1,005 posts
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    Are the motion issues noticeable on games, or is it mostly in sports?
    Not sure whether to just wait and hope for models with little compromise or bite the bullet to tie in with next gen. Do LED TV's handle motion better?
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