Final Fantasy XIII Page 202

  • Deleted user 20 February 2011 00:52:27
    King_Edward wrote:
    Fuck no. I don't want a JFallout 3. A little exploration, some side quests and a sense of humour and Final Fantasy would be fine again.


    Spot on.
  • Deleted user 20 February 2011 00:55:10
    How is it?
  • Deleted user 20 February 2011 01:09:13
    The do need new ideas, but good ones. Some of the decisions made with this game were not good ones. I respect the fact that they took some risks, but outside of the battle system they didn't pay off.

    I couldn't care less for FF7, or that style of game any more. In my head I compare FF13 more to Lost Odyssey. I loved that game but it was a chore at times because it was too much like a PS1 FF rpg. Yet it was still a better game than this imo. Decent pace, interesting presentation, decent fighting system, half decent story (the 1000 years of dreams thing was lovely), and linear as fook to boot.

    There must be some middle ground for jrpgs. They don't have to go all out wrpg. I don't want a FF game which is one massive area, with loads of mini towns, and 200 shiny vaseline leather faced npcs all around it who give you fetch quests.
  • King_Edward 20 Feb 2011 09:00:37 11,470 posts
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    I also don't want radical reform just because they messed up one game. Careful improvement and expansion could turn Final Fantasy into something special again.

    I know you can't you really compare the two directly, but look at Ass Creed. The first game was an empty, humourless trudge through a meaningless world. But without changing the formula, Ubi managed to make something special out of the sequel. Just by adding a sense of humour, better characters and some mission variety.
  • Aretak 20 Feb 2011 09:04:26 10,391 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    I know you can't you really compare the two directly, but look at Ass Creed. The first game was an empty, humourless trudge through a meaningless world.
    I loved the first Assassin's Creed. :-\
  • SteveHolt 20 Feb 2011 09:41:02 458 posts
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    FF13 is like fable3 or ME2 IMO - they made choices, some of them good, some of them questionable. Resonance Of Fate, also released in march 2010, made some bold design decisions too, which IMO were more interesting and made for a better game than FF13.

    FF13 isn't bad, though - it's just too "cold", lukewarm at best. IMO, this is a side effect of trying to streamline everything as much as possible... A bit like ME1 vs ME2 - the latter is silky smooth, but I developed a stronger bond with the rougher, less confident ME1.

    It's the "ghost in the shell" theory - if you design a ridiculously intelligent and impressive piece of software, but forget to inject a little something in it, you end up with something that people will admire, but won't fall in love with.
  • Widge Moderator 22 Feb 2011 07:23:53 13,858 posts
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    I'm hoping Versus13 pans out to be excellent, big fighting arenas, varied locations, varied fighting styles... just hope the story pans out. Its there that the real key to FF is.

    Oddly, I have this hankering to play FF13 again though, I wouldn't mind a 2nd hand version to go finish off all the marks.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 15:55:03
    Gah, after replaying the main story the other week I rebooted my old save to try and finish off a few achievements.

    Just need to beat mission 64 and I'm done (not bothering to 5* all the marks nor bothering to get all the items as they are just pointlessly daft inclusions).

    Thing is, mark 64 is annoying me now - got it down to 10%ish health a couple of times and it insta-wipes me. Sooooo annoying :(

    Stupid game. I'll be glad when it's finished now.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 16:22:01
    I'm going to reboot my FFXIII game again soon too, but I'm going to try to 5* everything, I've been told is not that hard, and the fighting system is very nice.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 16:52:25
    Phew, did the last mark and got a 5* ranking to boot :D

    CBA to get the last 2 achievements - about 50% of the marks are 5* but there's an awful lot of tracking back to old ones.

    miiiguel , if it helps, there's an item you get from mark 64 that helps getting 5* rankings (the Golden Stopwatch which extends the time requirements) that might help speed things along if you go back to it.

    edit: oh, and I forgot to add, grinding up all characters to the max CP level was painfully dull. Took me about 5 or 6hrs at least grinding on the same 2 monsters again and again and again....
  • JinTypeNoir 23 May 2011 17:38:47 4,368 posts
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    Reality check: Square won't change their approach with Final Fantasy games. You can bitch and moan all you like about how it's a failure and all that, but it sold more worldwide than the last Final Fantasy before it and this is what ALWAYS happens with series. If you were around when Final Fantasy VII was released, all you ever heard was how much of a disgrace it was, its the end of Square, Final Fantasy will never be good again. Same thing with VIII, X, XI and XII. IX was kind of special, but it got its own criticisms. This is just history repeating itself.

    You can say, "B-b-but Wada said..." or "So and so said..." but what do you think those PR quotes are? What they honestly think or things they say to please people (in this case, those who were dissapointed)?

    There's no way to measure correctly exactly how much of the audience will buy more Final Fantasy, how many liked it and didn't and the extent of it. And no, looking around message boards doesn't give you any better idea.

    Why not just accept that in a series about trying a different approach each time the chances you will find something you love every time are exceedingly slim?
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 17:42:34
    Sorry dude, is that directed at me?

    I loved FF13, warts and all fwiw - you'd have to to play it through twice I guess. Or were you just generally venting spleen?

    /is confused
  • JinTypeNoir 23 May 2011 17:56:07 4,368 posts
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    It's the thread in general. About XIII's reaction.

    For what it's worth, I think (most) of the plot is easy to understand, the character interaction was quite inspired, the battle system was something else and the whole game was a breath of fresh air in design. I always like lots of sidequests and side elements and stuff, so if it had that, I might like it even more, but more than that I'm really glad Square Enix decided to try a make an RPG without even remotely the usual pacing or field/battle/town/dungeon dynamic.

    But most of all, I found it immensely refreshing that buying or tinkering with equipment didn't have as much of an effect as arranging battle plans and such. I thought was pretty inspired how you can easily (not as some sort of special challenge you give yourself) go through most of the game with starting equipment. What a great change! Not saying I want it in all my RPGs, but in all the ways XIII was unconventional it was really refreshing.

    I realize that there are several things that put my experience in a different place than others, such as playing it before there was any consensus or great knowledge of what it was, having now no shortage of other RPG releases at any time of the year so I don't look to the game to fill some sort of gap and being part of the same culture of the people who created it (which means being completely indifferent to things that bug other people).

    But even then, I think the tenacity of the negativity is unhealthy. I mean, if it was that bad, you've probably already got it out of your system, go play a game you like more.
  • SteveHolt 23 May 2011 18:08:51 458 posts
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    Snakehips76 wrote:
    Phew, did the last mark and got a 5* ranking to boot :D

    CBA to get the last 2 achievements - about 50% of the marks are 5* but there's an awful lot of tracking back to old ones.

    miiiguel , if it helps, there's an item you get from mark 64 that helps getting 5* rankings (the Golden Stopwatch which extends the time requirements) that might help speed things along if you go back to it.

    edit: oh, and I forgot to add, grinding up all characters to the max CP level was painfully dull. Took me about 5 or 6hrs at least grinding on the same 2 monsters again and again and again....

    Be careful with the golden watch, it's not as useful as it could (should?) be:

    The problem is, the game calculates your target time for each battle, and the golden watch is only a part of the equation: the quality of your gear is also taken into account. If you go in battle with all the ultimate weapons, you'll have a much shorter target time. And, in mission 64 at least, you have to beat the target time by at least a couple minutes (I recommend you aim for target time minus 5 minutes).

    I read some people even went as far as equipping all the least valuable weapons+items for this fight.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 18:33:31
    I got 5* in about 11mins when I beat that mark (without the watch, obviously!) but I had maxed out the CP and had some decent wind resistant gear.

    I was more concerned at beating it (not going to bother with 5* all marks) so it was a nice surprise to see the top rating pop up :)
  • LionheartDJH 23 May 2011 21:45:24 20,294 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    It's a weird game, but not a great one. Hugely disappointing, that's for sure.

    I said a fair bit about it on the previous page, so I won't repeat that. It was massively progressive in some ways, and utterly ancient in others, which didn't quite work for me. But you know how most gamers are, JTN. They don't look at a game objectively, it's either the best game ever made or it's totally shit and not worth a minute of your time.

    I looked at this game objectively, and came to the conclusion that it was at best an average game, and a shit Final Fantasy game (for me personally, I understand some fans liked it and that's fair enough I'm happy they got their money's worth). I can understand Jin's frustrations with people bashing the game and labelling it the worst thing evar blah blah etc, so I will say that it had some good points and is definitely not the worst game ever. The graphics were fantastic and the battle system was great. The world itself was also quite interesting to an extent. However the main reason I play FF games is for the story, always has been. And FFXIII just did not do it for me on that front at all. The characters are all cunts, some of them are incredibly annoying (Hope and Vanille especially) and the storytelling itself is dire (they don't explain much, and expect you to read that encyclopedia to find out what the hell a Fal'Cie or whatever bullshit it is, if I wanted to read a book I'd buy one not play a game). So with zero interest in the story (it's quite bad when you actively want the bad guys to win and all the 'heroes' to die) I pretty much had no reason to continue trying once I got stuck on a boss, so I jacked it in.

    The worst thing about FFXIII for me is I love the series and some of the previous games are among my most favourite and fondly remembered gaming experiences, and to then play a game which I feel no immersion in or emotional connection to at all is hugely disappointing. There are good things about it, as I pointed out before, but for me it totally failed at being a Final Fantasy game and for that it is probably the most disappointing game I've ever played. Square have just compunded my disappointment by deciding to do a sequel for this instead of making a new game, which I can't blame them for given the time and resources they put into making the FFXIII world, but all the same it's not great for someone like me who didn't like the first game. I would like XV to be something really special and restore my faith in the series, but I'm not holding out too much hope for that. Still, at least Bioware are making RPGs I enjoy and I'll always have the PS1/PS2 FF's which will probably never be bettered.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 21:51:57
    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    It's the thread in general. About XIII's reaction.

    For what it's worth, I think (most) of the plot is easy to understand, the character interaction was quite inspired, the battle system was something else and the whole game was a breath of fresh air in design. I always like lots of sidequests and side elements and stuff, so if it had that, I might like it even more, but more than that I'm really glad Square Enix decided to try a make an RPG without even remotely the usual pacing or field/battle/town/dungeon dynamic.

    Hey Jin. I thought you made some good points here- Final Fantasy does try new things, and I've liked most of them for their individual quirks.

    The battle system of FFXIII I thought was pretty good- switching jobs in real-time, and watching the immediate change in your party tactics made managing the team interesting and rewarding.

    The pacing does seem a bit wrong though, I agree that change is good, and it was brave to throw out the JRPG formula, but there must have been other ways to give the players a break from battle-battle-battle than just cut scenes. It felt like the director didn't want to leave the player any opportunity to make the story their own.

    Also, what exactly about the character interaction did you find inspired? Could you elaborate on that? In particular, Lightning as the primary protagonist came across to me as grumpy, vindictive and shallow. Were we supposed to empathise with her purely because she had a short skirt, enough buckles and zips to kit-out a cosplay convention and legs four times the length of her chest?

    Not every protagonist has to be sympathetic- there are enough angry war-gods, emo vampires and daft space marines to go round, but I found it odd that she has little in the way of redeeming qualities. Sulking is rarely an interesting trait for a few hours worth of cut scenes.

    Also, Hope- there's a real disconnect in claiming a character to be scared, frightened and vulnerable in cut scenes that bookend gameplay that has him throwing platoons of soldiers and giant robots around with the power cosmic.

    It's not the worst game ever made, nor is it shit. It's a brave attempt that's ended in a good-but-flawed action game that has sold buckets. I just expected more, as several of the earlier ones are amazing.

    You're right, I should let go. Thing is, even a half-dozen RPGs later, I still can't remember playing another game where I despised the cast quite as much, even after completing Star Ocean IV. Maybe it's just the feeling of being trapped in a corridor run with Grumpy and co.

    Still, the good thing is, as you say, they change the game around each time, so put it down to experience and move on.

    /what? FFXIII-2 you say, Lionheart? Oh man...
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 21:57:54
    With all due respect it's only FF that could induce this amount of wall-to-wall hyperbole.

    It's a good game, some like it, some don't.

    I come down on the side of liking it, obviously, but that's just clogging up the post-mortem.

    /she's about to blow
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:06:38
    True enough. Glad you enjoyed it Snakehips. Some people seem to dislike the entire series, which is what starts the real shitstorms, especially (as Jin says) they are each different games with different ideas and mechanics. It's just a couple of them that don't really work for me.

    Still, there's loads more FF games in the pipeline, so who knows what they'll try next. The next PSP one looks like it'll scratch the old-school, world-exploring itch.
  • PazJohnMitch 23 May 2011 22:26:55 14,644 posts
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    I am sorry that we upset you Jin but I was really upset with FFXIII and thought it was awful. Not just a disappointing Final Fantasy but a terrible game regardless of name. It is easily the worst JRPG I have completed however I did complete it. (Something I doubt will ever be said of Blue Dragon and certainly not of Evolution).

    What I hate the most about FFXIII is that it did one thing brilliantly. The battle system is the best of any home RPG. (Actually prefered The World Ends With You but that exploited the DS and not a regular controller). Everything else except the graphics in FFXIII is terrible. As great as the battle system was it could not support the rest of the game. It is certainly not the only game to suffer from something similar: Mirror's Edge and Lost Kingdoms are great ideas wrapped in poor games. I suspect there are many more I have not played like Sudeki.

    It is not the first Final Fantasy I have been disappointed with as I did not like FFX much either. (And I hated the FFIII DS remake which I also abandoned). I have the misfortune of really enjoying FFIX and FFXII which are the two worst selling Final Fantasies since the PS1. FFXII in particular is in my top 3 all time JRPGs and would not be far from the top 10 in all genres.

    I have not given up on Square Enix and Final Fantasy. I will be buying the next mainline game on release day and still rate the series as one of my favourites. I like how the series is overhauled each time. I just hope that they keep this trend of change and do not release a game too similar to FFXIII in the near future.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:31:45
    I've played my worth of JRPGs over the last 2 dozen years - some good some not so good.

    I don't pretend to belong to this *ultra* JRPG gang t but at least I try to throw in the odd comment here and there. Hence my opinions are probably wrong. Hi ho.

    FF13 as a visual spectacle was superb. As a 'hands on' game it was hit and miss. The fights in themselves were great but the World itself was dreadful. Narrow corridors - in this day and age please??!

    The levelling was really well done - sure it was grind-worthy but do you remember any FF game that was any different??!

    OK - the main cookie (as I see it) - the Battle System.

    All you have to do is Mash X (or) A. Well, yeah, sort of. I've played this recently and I have seriously sore thumbs from mashing A (in X360 case). That's not to say the battle system is bad though, I really admire the way it's simplified and the auto-heal kicks in after every battle - in hindsight I consider the amount of hours saved spent not in the "healing menu" to far outweigh those spent healing teammates in the "old skool" FF games. That's not to say you'll like it - that's just how it is and I like that brash honesty sabout the battle system.
  • PazJohnMitch 23 May 2011 22:35:33 14,644 posts
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    redcrayon wrote:
    I still can't remember playing another game where I despised the cast quite as much

    Clearly not played Blue Dragon then? Although admitedly that is only one character but....

    As a whole cast though FFXIII is the worst set. Hope, Vanille and Snow are all terrible. I like Fang and Sazh but they are pretty one dimensional. Lightening was a good looking version of Squall for me. Did not dislike her that much as I had already had to deal with a grumpy FF lead before.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:40:33
    Lets get down to brass tacs, FF13 was a pile of horse shit.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:40:42
    It's interesting that we're seeing so many quasi-real-time battle systems though.

    Star Ocean IV was another one where I found the battle system exciting, fresh and interesting, despite the cast.

    Auto-heal after battles is a nice touch-if you take the characters off the field for a battle, and the sprites on the field don't necessarily represent those that will be in the battle anyway, I see nothing wrong with saving you 2 minutes of working out the optimum way to heal the party afterwards.

    If anything, I thought that 'mash A' thing comes from an overly long tutorial, leaving you hours of one-button battles before you unlock all of your abilities and can choose characters and manage the party properly.

    Losing the party leader=death was a step backwards for me in a game with random instant-death spells though.
  • LionheartDJH 23 May 2011 22:42:56 20,294 posts
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    I actually liked Squall, probably my favourite FF character actually (check the username!). However I didn't like Lightning, or any of the rest of them, as I said they were all annoying cunts who I couldn't care less about, and I actively wanted the bad guys to kill them at some point in the story. Also as I said the story was a badly told bag of shit. And Squall is better looking than Lightning tbf ;)
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:43:21
    PazJohnMitch wrote:
    redcrayon wrote:
    I still can't remember playing another game where I despised the cast quite as much

    Clearly not played Blue Dragon then? Although admitedly that is only one character but....

    As a whole cast though FFXIII is the worst set. Hope, Vanille and Snow are all terrible. I like Fang and Sazh but they are pretty one dimensional. Lightening was a good looking version of Squall for me. Did not dislike her that much as I had already had to deal with a grumpy FF lead before.

    Ah, y'see, I quite like the positive lead characters like Zidane and Vyse in JRPGs. Grouchy emo teenagers FTL.
  • Deleted user 23 May 2011 22:43:25
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