| Revenge may be warm, but it is bitter and it breeds. |
The Israel/Palestine situation • Page 2
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MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years ago -
Fatfish 3,377 posts
Seen 11 years ago
Registered 18 years agoMetalDog wrote:
In the 'eye for an eye' biblical references, the law was referring to financial compensation not physical dismemberment. You need to understand more than the words on the page before you start plucking verses out and waving them around. =) There's a ton of contextual stuff that would have been much more obvious to any jew at the time, but is not obvious to us gentiles now.
In the main, though, I agree with you. Even if we did have a dismemberment based justice system, people would want two eyes for an eye, because they are vengeful, not just.
Yes, although you put it slightly more eloquently than I did, the point is the same - man is vengeful by nature.
You're right, you do need to understand the words on the page, but so too did the original translators - don't forget the copy you read today has been through several interpretations and rewritings - rewritings and interpretations based on the society and culture of the time and even more so on the wishes of the church and state depending on who weilded power at the time. It's not a direct translation and is open to (mis)interpretation, so don't get too smug!.gif)
edit: just got round to reading your link. It relates specifically to the Torah. This blurb above is of course talkign about the modern bible. Should have checked your link first really!
Edited by Fatfish at 16:38:36 28-06-2006 -
Fatfish 3,377 posts
Seen 11 years ago
Registered 18 years ago -
The Torah is the Old Testament yeah? -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agokalel wrote:
The Torah is the Old Testament yeah?
Yep, pretty much. All translations differ here and there, though, which is why I have more than one bible. -
I meant in relation to Fatfish referencing the 'modern' bible. Wasn't quite sure if he meant the new testament, or just a modern translation of the old/Torah...
Seeing as this thread has cooled off, I may as well chuck in my 2p while I'm here. What I find incredible is that people find it so easy to pick a side in this one. I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent bloke, and yet I can't even begin to make sense of it. Its the most complex, layered, difficult to understand political situation I've come across.
The thing I think that is important to remember is that in this situation, most of the citizens on both sides just want peace, and are resinged to do doing whatever is neccessary to get there. The trouble is generally caused by a very vocal and violent minority, but really, we must always remember that the majority of people involved on both sides are peaceful human beings.
Now, the problem with pointing to specific atrocities, is that for every one commited, you can point to a counter-atrocity that was commited by the other side first, and you can play this game going backwards in time for about 60 years. This is what I mean by complex. I really believe there is no right or wrong here overall, but yes of course both sides have been individually appaling at various points.
I know for a fact that there are people who post on these boards who have friends and relatives living in both Palestine and Israel, and I think a lot of the comments that come out in threads like this do not take this into consideration for a moment. Not only that, but perhaps consider that some of these people may even have been affected by the conflict, perhaps people on here even know people who are fighting in it. It's a very complicated situation and I for one find it very hard to see right from wrong in it, just a big fat grey area. If it's ever going to be solved it will need an awful lot of empathy and understanding, not venom and vitriol. -
Fozzie_bear- you're absolutely right, of course, my point was that it's a self re-inforcing circle of destruction. To an untrained eye like mine (and I readily admit I'm no expert), the withdrawl of the Israeli settlements was an attempt to break that circle, as was yesterday's Palestinian announcement on the 1967 borders. Electing a terrorist Hamas government and taking hostages when they don't launch the all-out war you (hopefully wrongly, again I'm no expert!) feel your faith demands are quite the opposite. It seems like even when moves for peace come from unexpected places, there's still a huge contigent, possibly even a majority, who are for some reason keen to keep killing. -
Fatfish 3,377 posts
Seen 11 years ago
Registered 18 years agoBelieve me - I in no way support any side in issues like this. No matter how you look at it or dress it up, war is an atrocity in itself irrespective of the actions that take part during it.
Yes, the Torah is just one version of the Old Testament. I should have clarified myself - to a degree, I was talking about all versions of the Old & New Testament, but primarily about misinterpretations and rewritings as seen in the Western/Christian versions.
I've always wondered at the logic of it all though - considering Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have roots in the same scriptures and teachings and in essence tell the same story, only interpreted differently. So why so much war and bloodshed because people view things differently? Of course I realise that as time moves on, heavy political influences play a major part in escalating and propogating it, but still the root divide is caused by the religion. -
Darth_Flibble 5,592 posts
Seen 1 hour ago
Registered 17 years agoI've been readings some of the comments on the BBC webs site and it's very one sided. people have a very simple black and white view and have I've noticed you can say what you want about israel (does not have to be a fact) but say anything about Hamas and the so called "freedom fighters" it gets modded. The dumb idiots of the site claiming if israel withdrawed the violence would stop, Hamas have said many times it would stop until israel state is pushed into the sea. But they keep spouting like it's fact
I feel sorry for the innocent on BOTH sides, the IDF and Hamas, both don't give a shit about the innocent people -
Fatfish wrote:
Yes, the Torah is just one version of the Old Testament.
Nope, other war around... -
BillGaitas 276 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years agoKalel, only you can put an end to this madness!
save us
Edited by BillGaitas at 18:15:56 28-06-2006 -
Red-Moose 5,344 posts
Seen 6 years ago
Registered 19 years agolucky_jim wrote:
Just to throw a different viewpoint into the mix, do any of the forum's Londoners remember the feeling after the 7/7 bombing? Or the much-more-jittery feeling after the failed 21/7 bombing attempt? I think we'd all be much less understanding if we were being subjected to that day in, day out for years, as Israel has been. They're encircled by people who want to destroy them, people who deliberately target innocent civilians, and their policy towards their neighbours reflects that.
I'm not saying I agree with them, but it's important to look at every angle of any picture!
Yeah but it's not like current Londoners lobbied powerful governments to approve arms sales so that the Londoners could ethnically cleanse Hackney, Islington and Greenwich, and building a wall around the people who lived there, refusing them safe passage to visit relatives in the other areas,
Oh, and all the while bombing the shit out of Hackney, Islington and Greenwich.
The people in control are the Israelis, clearly, with superior armed forces and firepower and money, etc., . Thus, if the war is continued as it stands now, it because the group in power has chosen it to be. If they don't want to bomb the Palestinians (rightly or wrongly, knowing full well the Hizbollah/Hamas repercussions as they DO KNOW), they don't have to. Thus, the people in power are really just petty shitheads taking revenge. -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoRed Moose wrote:
Yeah but it's not like current Londoners lobbied powerful governments to approve arms sales so that the Londoners could ethnically cleanse Hackney, Islington and Greenwich, and building a wall around the people who lived there, refusing them safe passage to visit relatives in the other areas,
Oh, and all the while bombing the shit out of Hackney, Islington and Greenwich.
This is true, however, there are plenty of Londoners perfectly happy to see brown people shot on suspicion and to argue about hypothetical thousands of saved lives, even when it's proven that the police cocked up.
If the escellation of violence here reached the point it has reached between Israel and Palestine, I wouldn't be willing to bet on the superior character of Londoners, would you? -
wizbob 936 posts
Seen 14 hours ago
Registered 17 years agoeffinjamie wrote:
Just Imagine the reaction, if for anytime over the past 30 years, everytime the IRA set off a bomb or shot someone, we sent the bombers into populated areas of Southern Ireland or sent the Tanks rolling into Dublin to randomly demolish a few Housing estates!
not so far-fetched unfortunately... -
Genji 19,682 posts
Seen 10 years ago
Registered 17 years agoBillGaitas wrote:
Yes. That is the solution in a perfect world but, if by "both sides" you mean "all Israelis and all Palestinians", then I think you're wrong.
Ive got a solution for the conflict.
They should build a new country unifying both Israel and the Palestine. They could call it Super Happy Country and use a smiley as a flag.
The problem is that both sides want to wipe out each other and no one would accept it
In a perfect world, Palestinians and Israelis would be able to share the land, and allow freedom of worship to all. This actually has been achieved in history, albiet for very short periods.
It is highly unlikely that it will happen now, largely due to history, and largely to the disproportionate influence that racist factions have on both sides of the conflict. I really do believe that many Israelis and Palentinians would be happy to live together, but its often the xenophobic, vocal and violent minority that gets more of a say.
In Palestine, you have groups that don't just hate Israel for its perceived injustices towards the Palestinians - they are groups that hate Jews in general. You can point to passages in the Qu'ran that seem to justify this but, paradoxically, there are also passages commanding respect for "people of the Book" (ie. Christians, Jews, etc.). While Hamas is certainly more militant than the secular Fatah party, they, at least, can be negotiated into a truce, as has been achieved on a couple of occasions in the '90s. They can even be pushed into recognising the Jewish state. Factions like Islamic Jihad, however, just really hate Jews, and they will never be able to share the same land with them.
In Israel, you have political parties and people who want to keep Israel religiously and ethnically "pure". It is a form of racism, and it isn't just limited to Arab and Islamic people. There was the case of "Operation Moses", a mission to rescue Jewish, and only Jewish, refugees from Ethiopia. Once the refugees were in Israel, many experienced persecution based upon their colour, and the conception that African Jews had "impure blood". Groups sharing sentiments such as this have played a large role in segregating non-Jewish people from the Jews in Israel, and they will contribute to the difficulty, even impossibility, of creating a shared state.
So the solution is to have two states. Of course, then come the border issues. Israeli settlers have developed towns on Palestinian territory, and the Israeli government let them, even encouraged them. Any Israeli government that want to pull back now has to displace these settlers, many of whom have been living on Palestinian land for decades.
The government is building a wall that encompasses many of these settlements, and so necessarily walls off even more Palestinian territory. So if you're going to make two states, what are the borders going to be? How can you keep both your people and the Palestinians happy?
In brief, the situation is so much more complicated than many people I see would like to believe. Unless both sides - the Israeli government and the multitude of competing Palestinian militant groups - agree to an end to violence and a start to negotiation, then there will be no solution, not even in the distant future. The extremist groups on both sides need to take a long, hard look at reality.
Edited by Genji at 07:47:15 29-06-2006 -
MrSensible 26,517 posts
Seen 1 day ago
Registered 16 years agoMapster wrote:
Command and Conquer tactics FTW!
Take out the generators, and they have no powah for the weapons factories, good thinking if you ask me.
I know I'm late to the party, but I thought this post was just too genius not to applaud! So, uh...
/applauds -
ssuellid 19,142 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years ago"Israeli troops have detained dozens of Hamas ministers and lawmakers in the West Bank, as its offensive in Gaza to free an abducted soldier continues.
At least seven ministers and 20 MPs were rounded up in raids in several towns, Palestinian officials said"
Glorified biggest cock contest. Someone else needs to settle this as both sides are acting like twats as usual. -
SirScratchalot 7,921 posts
Seen 1 year ago
Registered 16 years agolucky_jim wrote:
Just to throw a different viewpoint into the mix, do any of the forum's Londoners remember the feeling after the 7/7 bombing? Or the much-more-jittery feeling after the failed 21/7 bombing attempt? I think we'd all be much less understanding if we were being subjected to that day in, day out for years, as Israel has been. They're encircled by people who want to destroy them, people who deliberately target innocent civilians, and their policy towards their neighbours reflects that.
I'm not saying I agree with them, but it's important to look at every angle of any picture!
But hitting the targets that have been hit, electricity and water purification facilities is completly mental. Power is believed to take six months to restor, sending people into darkness for 6 months without a real water supply to make yourself feel better? -
The_Aardvark 3,063 posts
Seen 9 years ago
Registered 16 years agoKalel;
On one level, I agree with you - the 'cycle' of atrocities committed by both sides is so deeply embedded that it is nearly impossible to see any side as holding a moral high-ground - morally they are both somewhere near the bottom of a deep sea trench.
However, looking at ways that the situation can be resolved it seems to me that it is Israel that has the power to end the situation. In theory, at least, Israel could, tomorrow, pull all of it's troops out of the occupied territories, end limits on freedom of movement and curfews, recognise the Palestinian right to self-determination and end the conflict. The ongoing causes of violence are Israeli holding of land that is within Palestinian territory, as recognised by the UN and continued infringement of Palestinian human rights, including the right to a representative, sovereign government.
The Palestinians can bomb, or not bomb but it seems that otherwise all the levers in the situation are in Israeli hands.
Additionally, the idea that Hamas are in control of the terrorist actions seems, frankly, ludicrous. While the leadership does have some sway over the suicide bombers, the idea that they are co-ordinating their attacks, or in a position to offer a cease-fire is by no means proven.
If Israel wants peace it must make sacrifices. The Palestinians don't seem to have much left to give up. -
SirScratchalot wrote:
lucky_jim wrote:
Just to throw a different viewpoint into the mix, do any of the forum's Londoners remember the feeling after the 7/7 bombing? Or the much-more-jittery feeling after the failed 21/7 bombing attempt? I think we'd all be much less understanding if we were being subjected to that day in, day out for years, as Israel has been. They're encircled by people who want to destroy them, people who deliberately target innocent civilians, and their policy towards their neighbours reflects that.
I'm not saying I agree with them, but it's important to look at every angle of any picture!
But hitting the targets that have been hit, electricity and water purification facilities is completly mental. Power is believed to take six months to restor, sending people into darkness for 6 months without a real water supply to make yourself feel better?
Ask America. they did exactly the same to iraqi civillians... (at least 40,000 civillian deaths...I mean...collaterall...) that pesky roadmap....pehaps they're reading it upside down or something....
Edited by Madder Max at 09:08:16 29-06-2006 -
NthSimulachum 785 posts
Seen 13 years ago
Registered 16 years agoBah, the formation of Israel was a really bad idea, done to curry favour with influential Zionist groups for the First World War. Even then, the intention behind the Balfour Declaration was not to create a new state, but to create a "national home". However, in reality, most people involved realised a seperate Jewish state would be the final outcome. And lets not mention the contradictory assurances to the Plaestinian government.
Edited by NthSimulachum at 09:11:41 29-06-2006 -
chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 13 hours ago
Registered 16 years agoGenji's comments about ethopian jews made me think.
How come the Israeli jews are white? Surely if they were "pure" regarding race, they would all look middle-eastern because that's where the Jewish religion started. -
I agree Aardvark. The points I made yesterday were more in responce to some of the harsher words people ahve to say about "Isreal" as a nation, particularly comparisons with the Nazis, rather than this specific case.
This particular one is scaring the shit out of me to be quite honest, for several reasons. The whole Hamas thing has really fucked things hard and I can't see how this one resolves. People seem to have already forgotten that only a matter of weeks ago Israel voluntarily pulled out of Gaza, so I do find implications that this is all part of some master plan to wipe Palestine off the face of the earth offensive. At the same time, I realise Isreal are overeacting massively that's very worrying indeed, god knows how this one ends.
People are entitled to their opinions nowhere more than here, so anything goes, but sometimes I do think people forget that there are real life hiuman beings involved in all this. Also I also can't help being suspcious when people start comparing this situation to Nazi Germany, I know its just ignorance, but it kinda smells a bit like something else. -
Chopsen wrote:
Genji's comments about ethopian jews made me think.
How come the Israeli jews are white? Surely if they were "pure" regarding race, they would all look middle-eastern because that's where the Jewish religion started.
Most of them are the same kind of colour as North Africans, but don't forget how many people would have gone there from Eastern Europe after WW2 as well. Anyway, who says they are "pure"? -
chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 13 hours ago
Registered 16 years agokalel wrote:
Anyway, who says they are "pure"?
According to Genji, the Jews do (I just re-used Genji's quoted term). -
Chopsen wrote:
kalel wrote:
Anyway, who says they are "pure"?
According to Genji, the Jews do (I just re-used Genji's quoted term).
Ah, he just meant Jewish, that's the only criteria. Don't forget that being Jewish is not really a race, so you can be a Black Jew, an Indian Jew, a Saphardic Jew, an Eastern European one, even a Martian Jew (or Kryptonian). There's no such thing as a pure Jew in the sense you mean, but then again, there's not really such a thing as a pure anything anyway. -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoChopsen wrote:
kalel wrote:
Anyway, who says they are "pure"?
According to Genji, the Jews do (I just re-used Genji's quoted term).
I've heard of this as well. Some of them seem to figure 'it's a jewish state, we should all be jews'. The sinister aspects of the viewpoint seem to escape them.
This wouldn't be much of a problem if it was just an occasional racist opinion, but some of these folk seem to have some serious power there, heavily weighting immigration. Anyone critisising them for it gets called anti-semetic, it's very annoying. The palestinians are semites as well, aren't they? -
MetalDog wrote:
Chopsen wrote:
kalel wrote:
Anyway, who says they are "pure"?
According to Genji, the Jews do (I just re-used Genji's quoted term).
I've heard of this as well. Some of them seem to figure 'it's a jewish state, we should all be jews'. The sinister aspects of the viewpoint seem to escape them.
This wouldn't be much of a problem if it was just an occasional racist opinion, but some of these folk seem to have some serious power there, heavily weighting immigration. Anyone critisising them for it gets called anti-semetic, it's very annoying. The palestinians are semites as well, aren't they?
Well, historically the whole point of Israel was that it was a land where any Jew would be welcome. Not that any Non Jew wouldn't be welcome, but it really has nothing to do with being 'Semitic'. Also "anti-Semetic" stopped meaning "anti-semetic" a long time ago, it now means "anti-Jewish", but lets leave evolution of language for the "ghey" threads eh? -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoThe folk I heard in Israel talking about it on the radio were /definitely/ talking about enforcing racial purity not religious purity. There is, of course, a certain irony in this and I think people kind of expect them to be above that sort of nonsense, all things considered. This expectation probably isn't fair.
/Everyone's/ got them. For every nation's erudite citizen, there's an ape hooting and playing with his nuts - the apes always seem to end up in charge in times of trouble though. Mankind's universal trait - stupidity =) -
MetalDog wrote:
You'd think they would've evolved out fo that by now
/Everyone's/ got them. For every nation's erudite citizen, there's an ape hooting and playing with his nuts - the apes always seem to end up in charge in times of trouble though. Mankind's universal trait - stupidity =)
.gif)
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