The 'Official' UFC appreciation thread Page 422

  • fontgeeksogood 28 Dec 2018 18:48:58 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    It's an utter circus. "Talk to Nowitzki" Dana says in the pressers, when the journalists dared to talk about the only thing which matters. Why? He sits next to you in the UFC office. "Who pays my raised income taxes?" Dana replies to the journalist asking if the UFC is compensating fighters for moving the fight because of their bizarre failed cover-up.

    The upshot of this whole thing is hopefully people stop thinking the USADA link is either totally independent or legitimizes the sport. It doesn't, it just makes things less fair on athletes. Ask Frank Mir or Tom Lawlor.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 11:40:51 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    I think the fact he got a reduced suspension for 'substantial assistance' implies that he was probably guilty of knowingly taken forbidden substances last time round. If not, then the only assistance he could give, surely, would be to state what street drugs and supplements he took that were supposedly tainted, which doesn't really amount to 'substantial' assistance to me.

    Having watched the JRE interview with this guy, however, it basically amounts to having to give Jones the benefit of the doubt on this one, as the results are not fully understood yet, due to the lack of scientific studies, due to the drug being illegal. But, similar results, with long term, recurrent positive tests, albeit in irregular and tiny (pico-whatsit) doses have been observed in scientific studies of other banned substances with a similar chemistry.

    Another factor was apparently how the body stored away traces of the drug in fat cells that are the last to be converted to energy when the body enters starvation mode (weight cutting).

    So, the truth is, even the experts don't fully understand the science yet as it's pretty cutting edge and they're getting better and better at tracing increasingly small amounts, with the minimum amounts required for a positive result yet to be properly established across all drug testing authorities.

    A lot of the responses to the news are emotionally lead, rather than lead by conclusive information that the observer understands, which is the problem with the Internet.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 11:41:52 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Oh and apparently Mir chose not to go to arbitration, so it's not really a fair comparison, he just took the punishment rather than challenge it.
  • fontgeeksogood 29 Dec 2018 11:59:23 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    Lukus wrote:
    I think the fact he got a reduced suspension for 'substantial assistance' implies that he was probably guilty of knowingly taken forbidden substances last time round.
    That doesn't - or shouldn't - matter. USADA does not investigate, comment or arbitrate on motivations or guilt, just observe and report testing. Athletes are considered accountable for anything which goes into their bodies.

    I've not changed my mind - it's deeply troubling that a course of action was chosen to switch States. It stinks of favoritism (best case) at least
  • senso-ji 29 Dec 2018 11:59:25 9,579 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I think Brendan Schaub asked the best question regarding this whole debacle: If so little is understood on how these substances are stored and consumed in the body, then why is it only Bones that's constantly getting flagged?

    Apparently, Holly Holm and DC were tested more than Jones and neither of them came up with anything irregular or 'picograms' of substances, and it's entirely reasonable to assume they take supplements and medicines during training camps.

    It's a total bullshit cover up from the UFC to try to get one last PPV of the year so their numbers can look good for 2018. Other than Khabib-Conor, I reckon the UFC have struggled with PPV sales this year and Jones is their saviour.

    Edited by senso-ji at 11:59:50 29-12-2018
  • SambaApe 29 Dec 2018 12:14:19 1,296 posts
    Seen 4 months ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    AddyJB wrote:
    Just watched the pre fight presser. God Jones is a lying cunt. I'd love Gus to win. He won't though and the Jones circus will continue.
    The major concern I have is that I think Gusís cardio has worsened dramatically since the original fight. It is a huge unknown about what has happened to Bones.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 12:29:54 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    senso-ji wrote:
    I think Brendan Schaub asked the best question regarding this whole debacle: If so little is understood on how these substances are stored and consumed in the body, then why is it only Bones that's constantly getting flagged?

    Apparently, Holly Holm and DC were tested more than Jones and neither of them came up with anything irregular or 'picograms' of substances, and it's entirely reasonable to assume they take supplements and medicines during training camps.

    It's a total bullshit cover up from the UFC to try to get one last PPV of the year so their numbers can look good for 2018. Other than Khabib-Conor, I reckon the UFC have struggled with PPV sales this year and Jones is their saviour.
    Well, their argument is that it's not a new instance. It's supposedly part of what he got caught for previously with no evidence of any additional doping.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 12:32:34 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    Lukus wrote:
    I think the fact he got a reduced suspension for 'substantial assistance' implies that he was probably guilty of knowingly taken forbidden substances last time round.
    That doesn't - or shouldn't - matter. USADA does not investigate, comment or arbitrate on motivations or guilt, just observe and report testing. Athletes are considered accountable for anything which goes into their bodies.

    I've not changed my mind - it's deeply troubling that a course of action was chosen to switch States. It stinks of favoritism (best case) at least
    That's where arbitration comes into it plus giving benefit of the doubt.
    I'm not sticking up for Jones, I do think he's basically a cheat, and he's rightly been suspended for it. But, from all the evidence and expert testimony, I don't think he's cheated on this occasion.
  • Deleted user 29 December 2018 12:36:54
    SambaApe wrote:
    AddyJB wrote:
    Just watched the pre fight presser. God Jones is a lying cunt. I'd love Gus to win. He won't though and the Jones circus will continue.
    The major concern I have is that I think Gusís cardio has worsened dramatically since the original fight. It is a huge unknown about what has happened to Bones.
    Yep. Either Jones will win via 3rd, 4th rd stoppage or he wins an easy decision. I can't see Gus winning at all. Guess it's all down on which Jones turns up. I'm actually more intrigued over the Cyborg/Nunes fight. It's actually quite a good card overall.
  • fontgeeksogood 29 Dec 2018 12:46:13 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    Lukus wrote:
    senso-ji wrote:
    I think Brendan Schaub asked the best question regarding this whole debacle: If so little is understood on how these substances are stored and consumed in the body, then why is it only Bones that's constantly getting flagged?

    Apparently, Holly Holm and DC were tested more than Jones and neither of them came up with anything irregular or 'picograms' of substances, and it's entirely reasonable to assume they take supplements and medicines during training camps.

    It's a total bullshit cover up from the UFC to try to get one last PPV of the year so their numbers can look good for 2018. Other than Khabib-Conor, I reckon the UFC have struggled with PPV sales this year and Jones is their saviour.
    Well, their argument is that it's not a new instance. It's supposedly part of what he got caught for previously with no evidence of any additional doping.
    There's two statements there. The second one is the only one USADA should be mentioning. The first is the opinion of Novitsky, who we shouldn't associate with USADA because he's a UFC employee.
  • mothercruncher 29 Dec 2018 12:50:17 16,273 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Worth thinking about this substance having been in his body, ďpulsingĒ, whatever, all of this time and whilst heís training for this fight. Thereís continued benefit carries over from the previous offence, diminished or not. If this substance can be released into his body when fat is burned during the weight cut then heís getting a further advantage over others that arenít corrupt.
    If this late release of a beneficial substance is straight up then- fine. But letís ban athletes that cheat for even longer then.

    But, whatever, the UFC, and the organisations around them that share revenue, have bent rules here in order to milk just about their last remaining cash cow. Itís corrupt as fuck and an awful look for a sport that craves legitimacy.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 12:52:08 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Oh well, I'm still watching, regardless. I'm sure the truth will come out in the wash.

    At the very least it highlights the trouble with this kind of science within sports entertainment, where things are constantly changing.
    The guy did mention the intention of having a list of USADA approved supplements at some point, which doesn't currently exist.
  • fontgeeksogood 29 Dec 2018 13:26:05 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    Doubt that'd ever happen (USADA approved). As we know it's really easy for clenbuterol to wind up in creatine powder, ahem
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 14:12:08 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    It might not have been USADA approved, I forget exactly, possibly UFC approved. Either way, there's never going to be a perfect set up.
  • mothercruncher 29 Dec 2018 15:01:54 16,273 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Definitely watching- just fairly certain we wonít get the result we want 😐
  • QotSAfan 29 Dec 2018 15:57:23 2,369 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Lukus wrote:Another factor was apparently how the body stored away traces of the drug in fat cells that are the last to be converted to energy when the body enters starvation mode (weight cutting).
    I don't buy this argument at all. Jones, for his first drug suspension, would have stopped taking the steroid a month or two out from the fight because he'd be detected on the run up to the fight. His weight cut would have started soon after or he would have been at the start of it. While some of the steroid would have been distributed in his fat reserves, he would have been burning that off towards the tail end of his cut and excreted the steroid (and any metabolites) with it.

    The real answer is that yet again, the sports bodies and testing agencies are in cahoots. It's the most obvious answer backed up by all of sports and sports testing history.

    The other thing I suspect is that the UFC full well know knew what kind of reaction they would get out of this. They've moved beyond the sport itself being just the entertainment and into the realm of the company, the fighters, and everything involved with that being the entertainment; much like wrestling. This, the McGregor-Khabib fiasco, and the constant 'title' fights have really dragged the reputation of the sport into the ground.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 16:38:06 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Oh hai there online scientist guy
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 16:41:31 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    By which I mean, speculating on something that you have no (I assume) qualifications in (your first paragraph) doesn't really mean anything unless you have the actual scientific know how to speak with any authority. That's why in this instance I'm going to take what the experts are saying over some angry people on the Internet.

    But you're right, the whole thing still stinks.
  • QotSAfan 29 Dec 2018 17:38:35 2,369 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Lukus wrote:
    By which I mean, speculating on something that you have no (I assume) qualifications in (your first paragraph) doesn't really mean anything unless you have the actual scientific know how to speak with any authority. That's why in this instance I'm going to take what the experts are saying over some angry people on the Internet.

    But you're right, the whole thing still stinks.
    I'm a pharmaceutical chemist so I have experience in this area. I'll drop the more layman like dismissal of my first paragraph and go a bit deeper this time.

    I've read the study Novitsky has talked about for the proposed hypothesis of the 'pulse effect'. Note this is not an established mechanism but a proposed one. It certainly is true that a drug, like the one in that paper, that has a high partition coefficient for lipophilicity can have a long clearance time in the body but you can't just can't take that paper for that drug and apply it to a completely different drug. Shit, even a simple substitution of a drugs methyl group for an alcohol group can change the binding and interaction of a drug so completely that it can become either efficacious when it wasn't or excreted before it reaches its target site. These are small molecule drugs we are talking about here, so even small changes in their structure will typically have a larger magnitude of effect compared to say your large biopharmaceutical drugs such as monoclonal antibodies.

    The studies on the drug in question, turinabol (the drug and M3 its longest acting metabolite), I believe have shown clearance times of around 50-60 days maximum for its most long lived metabolites. That doesn't fly with what the UFC are saying. Jones has been about 450-500 days since he last got popped. For the metabolite of a drug that is readily excreted to be floating around the body of a world class athlete for that long, who is most likely constantly training, is pretty weird.

    Basically the UFC have seen the money and said fuck it. They have tried to explain this away with some large leaps in logic, using fuzzy science and appeal to authority. I believe Jones has had 3 positive tests this year, with two earlier in the beginning of Autumn. The UFC have from looking at their past history with Jones, who as a character has shown he will do anything to win, looked away and protected their cash cow each time. I personally believe it would be naive to believe he wasn't doping this time.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 18:15:38 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    @QotSAfan Haha, typical :D

    You mention the 50 to 60 days from the Russian study? One study from 2011 iirc? Hardly conclusive, especially as detection techniques are apparently so much better now.
    Another paper or agency (I can't remember and can't be arsed to find it on my phone right now) mentioned something like 180 days for a reasonable estimate at how long the metabolites might stay around.

    As the facts stand currently, with the knowledge there is, they simply don't know enough to conclusively say one way or the other whether he's been doping since the original suspension. So they have to veer on the side of benefit of the doubt. It sucks, and it sounds unfair when compared to other sports and even fighters within the UFC, although I'm prepared to buy those explanations (Mir not challenging the sentence like Jones did, for example).
    The way I see it is a bit like the justice system. If you can not prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone has juiced again, and there's a compelling argument to explain the picograms found, then perhaps it's best to give the benefit of the doubt?

    Edited by Lukus at 18:18:49 29-12-2018

    Edited by Lukus at 18:19:28 29-12-2018
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 18:18:07 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    And just to state again, I'm fairly confident Jones knowingly cheated before, however with reference to all my previous posts and the evidence and testimony provided I'm not convinced these metabolites are anything new to his system now.

    He's still a dodgy cunt though.

    Edited by Lukus at 18:21:32 29-12-2018
  • fontgeeksogood 29 Dec 2018 18:23:51 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    Having seen part of the JRE podcast (I had to turn it off as I felt the top of my head going spongy), Rogan (I think) talks of metabolites being the after effects, and therefore not providing any performance boost.

    Nowitzki didn't correct him (it's not true; even whilst being excreted there can still be significant advantage from PEDs), and that made me wonder if two UFC employees can give an unbiased balanced view on the matter ;)
  • craigy Staff 29 Dec 2018 18:32:48 9,450 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    The thing I've learned during this hoo-haa is that there is a huuuuuuuge number of expert chemists that are also in to MMA.
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 19:13:43 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    craigy wrote:
    The thing I've learned during this hoo-haa is that there is a huuuuuuuge number of expert chemists that are also in to MMA.
    Truth. Facebook and YouTube threads are about as awful as ever.

    I found this quite a good synopsis of the key points -

    https://www.mmafighting.com/2018/12/29/18160041/the-science-of-bones-an-in-depth-look-at-jon-jones-drug-test-findings-why-hell-be-able-fight-ufc-232
  • craigy Staff 29 Dec 2018 19:28:34 9,450 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Either way, the card is absolutely staaacked. Condit, Chiesa, Cyborg, Nunes, Jones, Gus, Mendes, Arlovski, Zingano, BJ Penn, Ryan Hall?! And sheeet, even Uriah Hall is on the early prelims. Brilliant stuff.
  • Deleted user 29 December 2018 20:14:05
    If Gus wins they are gonna set up a rubber match aren't they?
  • Lukus 29 Dec 2018 20:49:00 21,948 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    When you get all your news from Brendan Shaub you know you're in trouble.
  • Frogofdoom 29 Dec 2018 20:49:45 13,427 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Can't stand the prick.
  • fontgeeksogood 29 Dec 2018 21:03:34 6,239 posts
    Seen 55 minutes ago
    Registered 1 year ago
    I have little time for him but that's true for Rogan and his brocast
Log in or register to reply

Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.