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@Rogueywon sounds ok to me. 13 was a piece of steaming shit. I don't mind if parts are linear. Not the whole game with a few hours at the end in a moderately sized field. I really fucking hated that game. |
Final Fantasy XV
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Rogueywon wrote:
Pulse was fuck all. I remember playing the whole awful corridor crawl game as I'd read a review that it opens up at some point. You get a few hours in a decent area which just reminds you how shit the rest of the game was and how good it could have been.
@ilmaestro FF15's linear sections are maybe 8-10 hours max and can be interrupted with jaunts back to the open world. FF13's linear section is around 25-30 hours to Pulse, with another 5 hours once you move beyond Pulse. Pulse itself is a pretty small area with little to do beyond some glorified hunts. There's no really meaningful comparison here.
I'll never replay that pile of shit. Which says a lot as I've probably replayed every single main series game from 1-12 at least twice. -
ilmaestro 32,932 posts
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Registered 18 years agoRogueywon wrote:
It's the same structure with the balance reversed, how is there no comparison? They're diametrically opposed games in many ways (XIII slowly and accurately introduces you to the battle system, XV largely doesn't even know how its own battle system works etc), with as much to dislike about them as the other.
@ilmaestro FF15's linear sections are maybe 8-10 hours max and can be interrupted with jaunts back to the open world. FF13's linear section is around 25-30 hours to Pulse, with another 5 hours once you move beyond Pulse. Pulse itself is a pretty small area with little to do beyond some glorified hunts. There's no really meaningful comparison here.
Edited by ilmaestro at 15:11:05 04-04-2018 -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoIf you're implying that XV's entire open world is equivalent to Pulse you're just categorically wrong. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Ingram85 I really, really can't agree with that. To be sure, FF15 was at launch - and to a lesser extent still remains - a somewhat flawed and incomplete game. Large chunks of story content being missing entirely or else shunted into Brotherhood/Kingsglaive was a long way from ideal. Patches and content additions have lessened this issue over time. But in other respects, it's a remarkably good game.
Most of the sidequests are reasonably meaningful and a couple have genuinely decent plotlines. The world design is really strong, with the alternate-world Americana of the open world giving way to the European and Japanese-themed designs of the later sections. There's a fair amount of storytelling going on in the background as well, if you take the time to listen to radio shows and read notes and posters. The combat system is also fairly decent (though admittedly not well-explained). It does take a while to show its full depth, but that's not unusual for Final Fantasy combat systems.
FF13, by comparison, was nothing but the corridor-shooter school of game design converted into a JRPG, with a grossly inflated playtime. -
ilmaestro 32,932 posts
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Registered 18 years agoRogueywon wrote:
Most of the sidequests are reasonably meaningfulRogueywon wrote:
Come on now. MOST of the sidequests are giving someone a potion or a repair kit, or running around a blue circle looking for glowing things on the ground. Navyth saves it because FSH is awesome.
Most
World building is exceptional, but this is par for the course.
Rogueywon wrote:
Actually, the combat system is pretty much fully available to you very early in the game, and you even have some of the best weapons in the game available at that same stage. It is a convoluted, broken mess, but it is extremely fun to play with.
The combat system is also fairly decent (though admittedly not well-explained). It does take a while to show its full depth, but that's not unusual for Final Fantasy combat systems.
Psiloc wrote:
No, I'm implying the open world section of XV is equivalent to the linear section of XIII, and vice versa. Neither is really the pinnacle of their kind.
If you're implying that XV's entire open world is equivalent to Pulse you're just categorically wrong.
Edited by ilmaestro at 08:50:39 05-04-2018 -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoWell I for one think XIII is easily the worst FF game of the lot, and XV is one of my favourites. As far as I'm concerned they don't even belong in the same conversation. Other than maybe "thank fuck it's absolutely nothing like XIII".
I really fucking hated XIII. Considering how long it felt like we had to wait for it it's probably one of my all time biggest gaming disappointments. Like Jyzzy, I've been completely unable to bring myself to replay it; just a few months ago I thought I'd give it a try and wasn't able to get past the introduction section.
I hate the aesthetic, the music, the characters, the gameplay, the corridor level design, Leona fucking Lewis, the story, the battle system, the voice acting... I genuinely at this moment cannot think of a single redeeming quality about it.
XV on the other hand I'm already on my second playthrough, approaching 80 hours. So when somebody asks me what XV is like, I don't imply that it's equivalent to XIII in any way, shape or form.
VII, IX, VI, XV, X, VIII, XII, IV, XIV, XI, [huge fuck off chasm], XIII
Because every FF argument has to end with "the list". -
Now that I think about it, XIII is by a distance the most disappointing game I've ever played. All I remember is walking down one looooong corridor, for 20hrs. How many people did it take to think that was a good idea? -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Psiloc XIII was fucking terrible. In absolute terms, its only rival at the bottom of the FF pile would be I, and that feels a bit too much like blaming a 30 year old game for being a product of its time.
XIII came out at a time when Square-Enix was in a really dark place as a developer. The trainwreck of the FFXIV 1.0 launch followed not far behind. If I remember correctly, XIII had a huge team working on it for years, but they were almost all artists - no writers, game designers or level designers. S-E were really in their art-led-development phase, which ended up being a total clusterfuck.
I can't find it right now, but I remember reading a post-launch interview with an S-E bigwig who admitted that just 12 months before release, XIII had no real story or gameplay mechanics - just a huge collection of art assets. Everything bar the art ended up being rushed through development in around 9 months. The one upside was that they ended up with so many spare assets that releasing the (slightly better) XIII-2 and (much better) Lightning Returns cost them a fraction of the normal development costs.
Edited by Rogueywon at 11:03:47 06-04-2018 -
Oh god, I'd forgotten about Leona Lewis.
I thought 13-2 and Lightning Returns were much better. But similarly I couldn't stand any of the characters, the story or the setting. I would however replay those one day and they fixed a lot of the mistakes from the original.
I'll never play 13 ever again sadly. Simply couldn't face that 20 hour tunnel again. -
@Rogueywon I played the FFXIV beta test and I'd rather play that again than FFXIII.
What they've done with FFXIV is pretty remarkable considering how broken it was. -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoAt the time they said something like they wanted to emulate the campaign from a typical FPS, because that's what westerners wanted.
It's a fascinating fuck up, really. There were articles written at the time about the importance of the "illusion of choice" in these games. If you think about it, most JRPGs are completely linear - you have an entire realised world to journey through, but at any given time you generally have ONE place you can go and only ONE way to get there. You have a little window around you that you can back or side track in, but ultimately the game doesn't progress until you go from pre-defined location to pre-defined location.
I think fundamentally with XIII they just took this too far, whether for budgetary reasons or some misguided attempt to appeal to westerners. The illusion of choice was shattered, and it was made clear as day that you're just running from point A to point B having the exact same experience as everybody else.
It's also interesting that this is all that everybody remembers about XIII. I honestly think I could have forgiven it if it was it's only flaw and there was this amazing game underneath. But boy, is that not the case. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Jyzzy-Z Yeah, when I played FFXIV 1.0 at launch, it took me about an hour to decide that it was fundamentally broken and probably beyond repair.
That they've turned it into something which is comprehensively "better than WoW" is really quite some achievement. I guess writing off a main-series FF game as a failure would have been too big a blow for S-E to stomach. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Psiloc They fucked up the combat system as well for XIII. Thing is, there is actually a decent enough system buried in there. They made a very similar system do good things in XIII-2 and Lighting Returns. But XIII unlocked parts of the system so slowly, and kept the level of challenge so low for most of the game, that unless you were prepared to really invest time in the Pulse section, you'd never really see most of the system.
The majority of battles could be won just by mashing X and maybe doing the odd, very occasional class-change. -
I remember all that. Comparisons to CoD, checkpoints etc.
Seem to remember some SE dude trying to justify removing towns and NPCs with some bullshit.
It's a worry that the last 3 main series games have had obviously poor development and have had to be repaired after the fact (13 with sequels, 14 with a complete redesign and relaunch, 15 with DLC to finish the story).
I love FF, wish they'd stop fucking it up. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Jyzzy-Z The removal of towns was justified on the basis that "it would take decades to make a traditional JRPG with towns and whatnot given how much work it is to develop for the PS3 and 360".
The hilarious thing was that they were saying this at the point where Lost Odyssey - a very attractive traditional JRPG with towns and everything - was already available on the 360.
I try to think of Lost Odyssey as the "true" FFXIII. It hurts slightly less that way. -
Yeah that's the bullshit I remember.
I loved LO. Could never get past a certain point as one of the discs was fucked. Might see about getting a copy somewhere. -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoI remember reading about some press conference with the new director of ARR after the relaunch and he broke down in tears. They'd just re-launched the game but it was crashing due to server load. Thankfully, of course, everybody was eventually going to see what a good game it had become, but you can only imagine the pressure that poor guy must have been feeling. -
@Psiloc Yoshida has done an amazing job with it. I let my sub lapse as it's not really the kind of MMO I like (it's a bit too much of a theme park). But hats off. And I really enjoyed playing it semi-casually for about 2 years, was well worth the cash but it gets uber repetitive and I don't really like the hotbar mashing combat, which I guess is MMO standard nowadays but I preferred the slower more tactical/traditional fighting of FFXI.
Combat in FFXIV is like memorising a dance routine and moving your character around accordingly or you're dead. No skill involved really, once you've memorised it you win. -
Humperfunk 8,634 posts
Seen 10 hours ago
Registered 9 years agoI thought FFXV was alright, the most time passes the more I think it's pretty meh. FFXII too. FFXIII meanwhile is down there with them but I'd still say I enjoyed it more. Controversial!
I mean, none of them are great. I mourn for the days of the PS1 trilogy and the almighty FFX. -
I'm really enjoying 12 HD on PS4. I didn't like the game that much in the PS2 days but compared to 13 it's fucking excellent. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years agoJyzzy-Z wrote:
If you still have your original copy and an XB1, just stick disc 1 in the XB1's drive. With the way back compatibility works, it will then download the whole of the game from the net. You'll only ever need to insert disc 1 to play, so the fucked disc won't matter at all.
Yeah that's the bullshit I remember.
I loved LO. Could never get past a certain point as one of the discs was fucked. Might see about getting a copy somewhere.
Disc 4 being fucked was a widespread issue with LO. Something to do with the cheap and nasty packaging they used, if I remember. -
Humperfunk wrote:
This man knows what's up.
I mean, none of them are great. I mourn for the days of the PS1 trilogy and the almighty FFX..gif)
That ending, man. Gets me every time. -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoJyzzy-Z wrote:
I also think the remaster did wonders for that game. I used to think the fast forward feature of the modern remasters was sacrilege, but with XII it really made a hell of a difference as its quite grindy and slow paced, and its actually a lot of fun watching your gambits work for you.
I'm really enjoying 12 HD on PS4. I didn't like the game that much in the PS2 days but compared to 13 it's fucking excellent.
The new map overlay, the fact you can get all of the gambits from the off, the new license board... lots and lots of little things that just made the game vastly more playable. It also helped learning not to view Vaan as the main character and to stick Ashe or Balthier front and centre.
The remaster for me was the difference between dragging myself to the finish line of the game versus completely rinsing it dry because I was enjoying it so much. -
@Psiloc I'm absolutely loving it. I can barely remember the original so I didn't pick up on the changes you listed but to be honest there must be a reason I'm enjoying it so much more than I did back in the day.
My only criticism so far is that you can cheese a lot of bosses with the Mist/Limit Break system and the animations are too long. But what else is new in a FF game right? Those issues go way back. -
Psiloc 6,368 posts
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Registered 14 years agoHeh, if I remember correctly they changed the way Mist works as well so that using them doesn't drain your MP to zero. Previously if you used one you were dead in the water trying to bring your MP and HP back up (unless you were massively overlevelled). Not great for a desperation move! -
Hmm. Does kind of make sense though, as you would only use it if you were really in the shit. I keep telling myself I won't use them, but then you get a hard hunt and you just fucking do it anyway. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Psiloc Correct. Quickenings and Summons were virtually useless past the opening sections of the original game, as they did indeed leave you with no MP (so unless they killed whatever you were fighting, you were in deep shit as soon as they finished).
The flipside, however, is that the job system in Zodiac Age greatly limits how powerful your characters can become compared to the original game, where everybody had access to the full license board. Some enemies have their health reduced to offset this, but it still makes some of the optional super-bosses harder than they used to be (and Yiazmat was never easy to begin with). -
That makes sense. But regardless I ended up with characters far stronger than I ever got them in the original because grinding was so much easier. Never really felt like I was grinding actually, just more inclined to explore the massive areas with fast forward than I was before.
What's that area near the start that's like a massive oil rig in the desert? That was the turning point for me. Rather than being massively frustrated and lost and CONSTANTLY going back and forth to the map screen, I just wandered around happily filling in my map and seeing what was what. I can completely see now why people liked it when it came out (it baffled me at the time), but for me the quality of life improvements were not just welcome, they were necessary.
.gif)
That ending, man. Gets me every time. Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.
