Page 11 • Mario Kart Wii • Gaming • Wii • Eurogamer.net

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 08:52:37 37,710 posts
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silentbob wrote:

What I'm arguining is that Mario Kart and it's core gameplay essence from the SNES days would be all but obliterated with a move to motion sensing as the primary mode of control. I just don't see how that can be argued against.

I'm NOT saying that there can't be a fun addition to the franchise utilising Wii's capabilities. I'm a Nintendo fan, and despite some of the utter pish they churn out these days I still have supreme faith in them. But a motion sensing version will not feel like Mario Kart. You can argue whether or not that's a bad ting until you're blue in the arse but when the best example you have is Exitetruck - you'd better start to panic!

I do share your concerns, but I don't think you can say with 100% confidence that "a motion sensing version with not feel like Mario Kart" until you actually play the game.

All of us are guilty of basing our opinions on nothing but speculation, but to just assume that motion controls won't work is a little harsh.

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 08:54:26 37,710 posts
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Leolian'sBro wrote:
I enjoyed MarioKart 64 and DD more than the SNES version, because I felt they were more manic, out of control and bizarre, whereas the SNES version was a bit bland by comparison. Each to their own though. And for everyone who complains about the massive luck element and rubber band AI, please explain how JuanKerr and I, over countless 16 race mirror match epic seasons, always managed to come in first and second.

I really hope Nintendo get the motion controls right though.

+1 (obviously)

silentbob 6 Feb 2008 08:55:58 29,527 posts
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Tonka wrote:

silentbob wrote:
What I'm arguining is that Mario Kart and it's core gameplay essence from the SNES days would be all but obliterated with a move to motion sensing as the primary mode of control. I just don't see how that can be argued against.

So you prefer D Pad controls in racers I take it?

No. 'Core Gameplay' does not equal 'Gamepad'. But at the same time, elements of the gameplay are tied to natural physical limits of the controller by design.

Can anyone confirm that the motion controls are indeed optional? In my experience that's a sure fire admission that most of what I've just said is bang on the money.

It'll also be interesting to see how many people playign online choose traditional over motion sensing. I have a sneaking suspicion I think I know which way that'll go.

silentbob 6 Feb 2008 08:59:26 29,527 posts
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JuanKerr wrote:

silentbob wrote:

What I'm arguining is that Mario Kart and it's core gameplay essence from the SNES days would be all but obliterated with a move to motion sensing as the primary mode of control. I just don't see how that can be argued against.

I'm NOT saying that there can't be a fun addition to the franchise utilising Wii's capabilities. I'm a Nintendo fan, and despite some of the utter pish they churn out these days I still have supreme faith in them. But a motion sensing version will not feel like Mario Kart. You can argue whether or not that's a bad ting until you're blue in the arse but when the best example you have is Exitetruck - you'd better start to panic!

I do share your concerns, but I don't think you can say with 100% confidence that "a motion sensing version with not feel like Mario Kart" until you actually play the game.

All of us are guilty of basing our opinions on nothing but speculation, but to just assume that motion controls won't work is a little harsh.

I'll give you that I cannot be 100% certain. But then what evidence is there to the contrary so far? I've given up offering up my faith in the Ninty religion.

Remember kids, it's really a cult! Which probably makes ecosee, David Koresh.

silentbob 6 Feb 2008 09:02:05 29,527 posts
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frod wrote:
they can whack in a deadzone quite easily, and Excite Truck had one too, but the problem is, you don't really know where it is without visual feedback, as it has no auto-centering. This is the real issue and can lead to constantly overcorrecting.

In my opinion, a deadzone with no physical limitations or guidance is no deadzone at all. More a 'wobbly zombie zone'.

Essentially a deadzone without autocentering - or at least a physical guidance basis for centering - is a bit crap.

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 09:02:44 37,710 posts
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silentbob wrote:

I'll give you that I cannot be 100% certain. But then what evidence is there to the contrary so far? I've given up offering up my faith in the Ninty religion.

Remember kids, it's really a cult! Which probably makes ecosee, David Koresh.

There's no evidence either way (specifically in relation to Mario Kart), so I will reserve judgement.

I am prepared to put my faith in Nintendo.

/ scratches Nintendo logo into forearm with compass

Machetazo 6 Feb 2008 09:23:26 6,373 posts
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frod wrote:
Rubberbanding is an essential component in arcade racers, not a flaw. I think that's beside the point, and also a core part of MK.

+1

Tonka 6 Feb 2008 09:26:03 31,980 posts
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silentbob wrote:
Can anyone confirm that the motion controls are indeed optional? In my experience that's a sure fire admission that most of what I've just said is bang on the money.

If they are optional then it's all shit. Either or is what I want. Optional is a cop out. Optional is a maybe.

Kay 6 Feb 2008 09:36:34 21,321 posts
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Well, Nintendo games do tend to have spot-on control systems. They wouldn't just throw something in without vigorously testing it, especially with such an important franchise like Mario Kart. Miyamoto and co. are known to be quite anal about these sort of things.

K

Nabokov 6 Feb 2008 09:43:47 103 posts
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silentbob wrote:

frod wrote:
they can whack in a deadzone quite easily, and Excite Truck had one too, but the problem is, you don't really know where it is without visual feedback, as it has no auto-centering. This is the real issue and can lead to constantly overcorrecting.
In my opinion, a deadzone with no physical limitations or guidance is no deadzone at all. More a 'wobbly zombie zone'.

Essentially a deadzone without autocentering - or at least a physical guidance basis for centering - is a bit crap.

I agree that it's more diffcult, but surely there is physical guidance at some level; just hold your wiimote straight. You are able to do this with coffee cup, right? Not perfectly straight, but do you really need that in driving game. Driving is about continuously doing small corrections. Or maybe Mario Kart is not a driving game. And about the overcorrecting in ET, that's the skill, and you learn it.

Maybe (or hopefully) this adds some uncertainty to driving, but again I see this as a good thing, because that's how it is in real life too, nobody can drive perfect laps all the time. It's more exiting when there is a chance for error even for best drivers.

But I like realistic driving games. I'm not saying that motion control makes it any more realistic, but I believe that with good implementation it doesn't take it away neither. If that makes any sense.

Deleted user 6 February 2008 10:10:40

frod wrote:
Rubberbanding is an essential component in arcade racers, not a flaw. I think that's beside the point, and also a core part of MK.

The Shigeru Miyamoto-directed Super Mario Kart (SNES) did not employ rubberbanding and was never a core part of MK. The core, as I understand it, was tight races with powerups giving an edge and an emphasis on self-improvement of lap times.

With rubber-band AI, those at the back will quickly catch-up with "loaded" power-ups, whilst those who put the time in and run consistently good races are unfairly obstructed by blue shells - robbing the player of any incentive to improve.

I know I stopped playing Mario Kart DS after a relatively short period of time because of this.

Der_tolle_Emil 6 Feb 2008 10:22:39 7,308 posts
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The blue shell is a different matter. I thought that the MK64 implementation of the blue shell was more balanced than the DS one. The DS one is out to get the first player only - because it hovers for a small amount of time before actually striking also gives other players that are close enough time to brake or steer away so the blast doesn't hit them.

In Mario Kart 64 the blue shell was likely to take out more than just the leading kart. This made it easier for the player with the blue shell to catch up because more players in front of him will slow down and the first player doesn't necessarily lose all that much if the second player is hit as well.

The concepts are different - Mario Kart 64's blue shell was more to let players catch up whereas Mario Kart DS' blue shell was only out to get the one in first position but that didn't really help the player that got the blue shell at all.

This is less an issue of rubber banding rather than imbalanced items.

Eventually though I still think that skilled players won a lot more than unexperienced players that often get blue shells. I think I'm a quite skilled MK DS player (and yes I do snake) and even after getting hit by three or four blue shells I still often managed to finish first.

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 10:36:28 37,710 posts
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Der_tolle_Emil wrote:
The blue shell is a different matter. I thought that the MK64
Eventually though I still think that skilled players won a lot more than unexperienced players that often get blue shells. I think I'm a quite skilled MK DS player (and yes I do snake) and even after getting hit by three or four blue shells I still often managed to finish first.

That's the key - even on the 'unbalanced' Double Dash and DS versions, the best player still tends to win and ultimately, victory comes down to good driving and intelligent use of items.

Put it this way, I've very rarely been beaten by a new player on any of the Mario Kart games.

pjmaybe 6 Feb 2008 10:44:21 70,666 posts
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I was right about the steering wheel thing though, ages back

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 10:50:10 37,710 posts
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frod wrote:

JuanKerr wrote:
Put it this way, I've very rarely been beaten by a new player on any of the Mario Kart games.

and this is what the wheel is for.

So you really think that a Mario Kart veteran is going to be matched by a brand new player to the franchise because of the wheel attachment? Have you considered the possiblity that what Nintendo said is just marketing guff designed to shift more copies?

Reggie wasn't going to stand there and say: "With Mario Kart Wii, new gamers to the series aren't going to stand a chance against the tens of millions of Mario Kart veterans out there. New players will be okay playing against other new players, but they might as well not bother going online (one of the main attractions of this game) because they will just get fucking whipped by veterans."

JetSetWilly 6 Feb 2008 10:55:56 5,720 posts
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The point there though, Juan, is if the Wii Wheel motion control steering is the sole form of input. Reggie speaks of levelling the playing field and you can only do that if the control scheme is equally new to all players. Of course from there some will be better than others with time and practice; but by changing the control scheme you put everyone on an equal footing for a time. If a veteran were to pick traditional controls (assuming they're available) and a n00b picks Wii Wheel of course the n00b will get caned. So how do you stop that? You make them both play in the same way. That's the concern.

Ignatius_Cheese Moderator 6 Feb 2008 10:56:56 11,104 posts
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Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional. Motion controls will be optional.

Get it? Got it? Good...

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 11:02:24 37,710 posts
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JetSetWilly wrote:
The point there though, Juan, is if the Wii Wheel motion control steering is the sole form of input. Reggie speaks of levelling the playing field and you can only do that if the control scheme is equally new to all players. Of course from there some will be better than others with time and practice; but by changing the control scheme you put everyone on an equal footing for a time. If a veteran were to pick traditional controls (assuming they're available) and a n00b picks Wii Wheel of course the n00b will get caned. So how do you stop that? You make them both play in the same way. That's the concern.

I see your point, but I think a Mario Kart veteran will adapt to any new control scheme in no time at all. Knowledge and experience with the franchise counts for a lot more than merely steering the kart - a new player isn't really going to know about weapon tactics, how to take the corners properly and the strengths/weaknesses of the characters. Also, the appearance of classic courses means that veterans immediately have the upper hand in certain races.

I am excited about the prospect of a new control scheme and the way I see it, Nintendo aren't going to please everyone. If they don't change the game at all, some people will moan that it's just the same old Mario Kart with a few extra bells and whistles. However, if they change it (like they appear to be doing now), others will moan that they are destroying the franchise.

Der_tolle_Emil 6 Feb 2008 11:07:08 7,308 posts
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Some people like motion controls, some don't. I understand that.

However this has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. Why do so many insist that leveling the playing field means that veterans will not be as good because of the new control and not the other way around meaning that new players will be able to get the controls down much quicker and thus become skilled a lot faster?

In fact this is what Reggie actually meant. Newcomers will be able to catch up a lot quicker becuase the motion controls are easier to learn and master than the analog stick controls would be.

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 11:13:31 37,710 posts
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Der_tolle_Emil wrote:
Some people like motion controls, some don't. I understand that.

However this has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. Why do so many insist that leveling the playing field means that veterans will not be as good because of the new control and not the other way around meaning that new players will be able to get the controls down much quicker and thus become skilled a lot faster?

In fact this is what Reggie actually meant. Newcomers will be able to catch up a lot quicker becuase the motion controls are easier to learn and master than the analog stick controls would be.

Well put. But don't forget, by the time the newcomwers have caught up, the veterans will have already honed their skills and be just as far ahead as they were in the first place ;-)

JetSetWilly 6 Feb 2008 11:22:21 5,720 posts
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I just wonder if adding motion controls is an attempt to solve a problem that isn't there. That they're trying to make it a cross-over title when it won't be. I dunno, I just think a casual audience knows where it is with a regular driving game: accelerate, brake, turn, go fastest, customise car to make it faster. But then you come to Mario Kart: power-ups, hopping, snaking, drift etc etc and it can all be a bit off-putting. And if anything I would just see loose motion controls adding to that frustration.

malteaserhead 6 Feb 2008 11:28:22 13,443 posts
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JetSetWilly wrote:
I just think a casual audience knows where it is with a regular driving game: accelerate, brake, turn, go fastest, customise car to make it faster.

Depends on how casual they are maybe...

I think pads are ridiculously complicated for the uninitiated.
E.g 360 pad 13 buttons, two sticks, d-pad. Up to 19 things to press or push to make the on screen object do your will.

Of course, this doesn't mean wii = intuitive. Just that normal controllers aren't that intuitive either.

/rambles on

JuanKerr 6 Feb 2008 11:29:09 37,710 posts
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JetSetWilly wrote:
I just wonder if adding motion controls is an attempt to solve a problem that isn't there. That they're trying to make it a cross-over title when it won't be. I dunno, I just think a casual audience knows where it is with a regular driving game: accelerate, brake, turn, go fastest, customise car to make it faster. But then you come to Mario Kart: power-ups, hopping, snaking, drift etc etc and it can all be a bit off-putting. And if anything I would just see loose motion controls adding to that frustration.

But Mario Kart has always been a title that is universally popular - everyone seems to have played it at some point, even if they aren't into games.

Youthist 6 Feb 2008 11:45:04 14,724 posts
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Who remembers "Power Drift" in the arcades? That had a drifty type "wheel" and felt great. It looks like arse now, but the actually karting mechanic, with the wheel, was superbly handled for its time.

Der_tolle_Emil 6 Feb 2008 11:46:51 7,308 posts
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JetSetWilly wrote:
I just wonder if adding motion controls is an attempt to solve a problem that isn't there. That they're trying to make it a cross-over title when it won't be. I dunno, I just think a casual audience knows where it is with a regular driving game: accelerate, brake, turn, go fastest, customise car to make it faster. But then you come to Mario Kart: power-ups, hopping, snaking, drift etc etc and it can all be a bit off-putting. And if anything I would just see loose motion controls adding to that frustration.

I doubt the main reason was to make it easer for newcomers. I don't deny that this is definetly something that Nintendo also want but knowing Nintendo I think the main reason for motion controls is that they think they are better suited for this game or more fun.

Without going too much into detail, for a game like Smash Brothers Nintendo isn't forcing anyone to use the Wiimote and I never heard Nintendo talk about Wiimote support was there mainly to help players into the game. It will be a factor but the focus clearly is on the cube controller - obviously because it's so much better suited for this type of game.

I think eventually Nintendo are really interested in what works best for the game. With Smash Brothers Nintendo thinks it's the cube controller and I think they are right - same as Nintendo obviously focus on the motion controls for Mario Kart as Nintendo think that they are better for this game.

To get back a bit to the point: I don't think Nintendo is fixing a problem that isn't there by implementing motion controls. They try to make the game better and more fun, that newcomers will have it easier to get into the game is more a positive side effect rather than the main reason why they are in the game.

Kay 6 Feb 2008 11:47:00 21,321 posts
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ecosse_011172 wrote:
Why are people so incredibly cynical?

Better to be cautious and cynical than to be ultimately disappointed.

Then again, you don't seem to be disappointed with anything that has the word Mario in the title.

K

Mario Kart Wii • Page 11