Following Boardgames anyone? Page 325

  • Gregolution 4 Dec 2018 16:09:59 9,205 posts
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    @McGeeza

    What if you had something like flip sides to the tokens you reveal and a set number of them reinforced? Then the scenario would have a set, balanced level of reinforcements.

    You could end up with 4 reinforcements in 4 turns and completely ruin the experience as it stands. You can say it's unlikely but that purely random way of determining things can often either make it too easy or too hard and neither option feels fun.

    You ask to compare it to Gloomhaven. If you think about what they're trying to accomplish with this reinforcement mechanic - it's to add a sense of urgency so you can't hang around forever. In Gloomhaven your deck slowly diminishes and eventually you become exhausted so there's only a set amount of things you can do during any mission. All missions can then be designed with that in mind. Mathematically they can work out the level of the creatures you fight and how tight they want the mission to be regarding timing. You naturally have a sense of urgency there.

    I think its clear it takes a lot more effort to design something that's balanced in Gloomhaven than just to add a 5% chance every turn of any group you've just gone through the effort of killing suddenly reappearing at full strength.

    Sword and Sorcery is similar too. You have a set number of shadow tokens on the board, you don't know exactly what they are until they get into LOS and then they could be creatures or nothing, but the variance of how many you could get best case versus worse is much much smaller than in Blackstone.

    I just look at it in terms of design effort. Saying, ok we'll put 1-4 on a d20 every turn that everyone in a group reappears takes as much effort as it took me to type that out. Lots of other games spend a long time playtesting balance to always keep each game really tight and interesting.

    Always amazed me how many times a game of Gloomhaven comes right down to the wire, needing a big hit on one of your last 2 cards of the game.
  • Gregolution 4 Dec 2018 16:12:45 9,205 posts
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    Not to mention the fact that clearing out a room of enemies and then suddenly all 5 of them reappear out of thin air would just seem incredibly ... un fun and frustrating?
  • McGeeza 4 Dec 2018 17:28:47 1,924 posts
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    You seem to be quite angry about this. :)

    They don't all appear on a 1-4. It's staggered. And you can only reinforce up to the original amount. So 2 Spindle Drones will only reinforce to 2 even if you roll a 1 (which I believe is up to 6).

    Also they appear from 'portals' attached to the edge of the board. You know, like enemies running into a room. To reinforce.

    Also, the BF missions have a random element. You draw a layout and then you draw encounter cards, so in theory it's unlikely that you will get the same 'dungeon' twice, especially the ones with 4 spawn points.

    Because of the random nature of BF i'm not sure how else they would have done it.

    I did watch the SU&SD play of Gloomhaven, and although there was lots of bants, they took about 2 hours to do an encounter with 2 rooms and about 6 (cardboard - urgh) enemies, which is fine if you have a lot of time on your hands, but it's not for me.

    From what you've said though I don't think BF is for you. Too random for your tastes. Which is fine. Unless you are on a mission to buy all the games? :)
  • Nemesis 4 Dec 2018 18:56:21 19,481 posts
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    Well I finally bit the bullet and purchased a 2x4 Kallax unit; stopping at the halfway house for fish and chips complete with cold peas. As you do.

    Christ on a motorbike that box was heavy; however I got a +2 to strength and managed to haul it out the car and up a flight of stairs. I've not built it, it can wait until Friday.

    I'm quite looking forward to sorting out the games finally. They're here and there across a couple of rooms, in cupboards, in wardrobes, sometimes even on shelves.

    In other *other* news, the next LOTR adventure pack dropped this week and, lo, Chaos are out of stock. I'm thinking they never had it in as pre-order was the same. Shocking amount of stuff awaiting re-print. Grego' keeps popping up in LOTR forums. He's probably saying the same thing. *grumbles*
  • Gregolution 4 Dec 2018 22:07:59 9,205 posts
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    McGeeza wrote:
    You seem to be quite angry about this. :)

    Not even remotely angry mate :) Not sure where you get that from. I purely talk about how simple it is to create a few roll tables to make a game out of. I'm not bothered in the slightest, if anything I'm just a bit disappointed GW haven't really moved forward with the rest of the board gaming world.

    I grew up a huge GW fanboi. I love the lore, the miniatures, the art. I just wish they'd modernise a bit. I really wanted to get Blackstone fortress. I love dungeon crawlers and I have a special soft spot for GW, but every video of Blackstone really puts me off and disappoints me.

    Don't you think with a bit more effort they could have gone up with some more elegant ideas?

    McGeeza wrote:
    and about 6 (cardboard - urgh) enemies,
    I think this sums up a lot about GW. GW games are far more about the hobby side - the minis and the painting. The game is just an excuse to use them and play with them, not really the focus. A lot of people that play GW games get upset by GH cardboard enemies.

    I tend to just look at game mechanics first and foremost. The game is way more important than the minis. But it's a pity with GW because the minis are so good I wish they'd make something worthy to play with them!

    Edited by Gregolution at 22:11:29 04-12-2018
  • Mola_Ram 4 Dec 2018 22:20:44 18,925 posts
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    We played Deep Madness the other day. It was fucking brutal. There's a time limit, most of the objectives are underwater (and you don't have breathing gear), and yes there are many many monsters. It feels pretty overwhelming, even with the knowledge that you're not really supposed to stay and fight the monsters.

    I... don't know if I enjoyed it or not. Seemed like it was difficult just for the sake of being difficult, if that makes sense. I don't mind a challenge, but I like to feel like I'm making progress.
  • Gregolution 4 Dec 2018 22:22:39 9,205 posts
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    @Mola_Ram

    I've heard it's brutal! A friend bought the lot and likes it. I'm keen to give it a try some time.
  • Mola_Ram 4 Dec 2018 22:28:30 18,925 posts
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    I didn't really care for the theme. It's just very dark and dank. I generally prefer something a bit more cartoony, like Zombicide Black Plague or something like that.

    But that's just my taste, really. I'm sure there's a niche of players that will love it.
  • McGeeza 4 Dec 2018 23:35:54 1,924 posts
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    Gregolution wrote:
    I tend to just look at game mechanics first and foremost. The game is way more important than the minis. But it's a pity with GW because the minis are so good I wish they'd make something worthy to play with them!
    Of course, but I didnít realise that GH commits a sin by mixing player minis with cardboard standees for the enemies. Thatís just lazy. ;)

    BF has been getting decent reviews and I think youíre fixating on the reinforcement roll, and as mentioned, because the majority of encounters you face are random, I donít see how they could have made the reinforcements non-random.

    And yes I am into the hobby side, so the minis are a big bonus as I still think that GW are untouchable in that respect.

    As I said itís not the end of the world as I suspect the last thing you need is another miniature game at the moment. I just think GW are smashing it after many years in the wilderness, so would like to see them going full on back into boxed games, like the good old days. Iím sure a lot of us older gentleman have a soft spot for them due to them getting us into the hobby in the first place back in the mid eighties.
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 08:49:43 9,205 posts
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    McGeeza wrote:
    Of course, but I didnít realise that GH commits a sin by mixing player minis with cardboard standees for the enemies. Thatís just lazy. ;)
    Not lazy, just cost saving :). You get a tonne more monster variety because they went cardboard, that was the idea.

    McGeeza wrote:
    BF has been getting decent reviews and I think youíre fixating on the reinforcement roll, and as mentioned, because the majority of encounters you face are random, I donít see how they could have made the reinforcements non-random.
    Yeah it has been getting good reviews, but loads of games I don't rate get good reviews so doesn't mean much to me.

    McGeeza wrote:
    Iím sure a lot of us older gentleman have a soft spot for them due to them getting us into the hobby in the first place back in the mid eighties.
    Yes we do! But game design has moved forward a long way and GW has stagnated a bit, that's all.

    Anyway.... it wasn't me that brought up a Gloomhaven comparison, I only answered your query. There are plenty of people that don't like GH because it's such a monster, takes a long time to set up etc. Tonka here is one of them and that's perfectly fine.

    I'm also not really that fixated on reinforcement only - it's SO MUCH ROLLING, all the time. I literally think Blackstone has the most dice rolling of any game I've ever seen. More than Blood Bowl, 40k... put together maybe. Not in number of dice, just in number of things decided by a roll.

    One thing I do like is the dice allocation system. There, I said something positive :D.

    McGeeza - I'm really not that angry or negative or on a high horse here. I think you've got the wrong impression of me in this conversation. I like GW - their miniatures are absolutely untouchable. I only wish they'd put as much effort into designing their game systems, that's all. I think a lot of people, not just me, believe they lag behind a bit there.
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 08:51:56 9,205 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    I didn't really care for the theme. It's just very dark and dank. I generally prefer something a bit more cartoony, like Zombicide Black Plague or something like that.

    Some people have said it's a bit like a really tough Zombicide. Would you agree?
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 08:55:56 9,205 posts
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    McGeeza wrote:
    As I said itís not the end of the world as I suspect the last thing you need is another miniature game at the moment.
    This is so true. Incoming miniatures games :
    Claustraphobia
    The Edge Dawnfall
    Batman Gotham City Chronicles
    Eclipse 2nd Edition
    Nemesis (arrives today!)
    Resident Evil 2 TBG (edit - forgot this one)

    Absolutely outrageous behaviour. No idea where I'm going to put it all :|

    And btw McGeeza, if you played Shadespire at all, I'd highly recommend giving The Edge a look. They're so similar but another example where GW's game design fell well short and another company did it right. It's like a much more advanced Shadespire++. Fantastic game.

    Edited by Gregolution at 09:36:44 05-12-2018
  • Mola_Ram 5 Dec 2018 08:58:49 18,925 posts
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    @Gregolution

    It has the general structure of a Zombicide (team of heroes run to get objective and leave while trying not to die), but it feels pretty different to me. The turns work completely differently for one thing. Like, first one hero goes, then one type of monster goes, then another hero goes, etc.

    And there's a lot more focus on avoiding enemies as opposed to fighting them. In Zombicide, you need to fight a bit just so you can level up. Here, you can fight enemies if you have no better option, but it probably won't go well and you may go insane even if you win. Going insane is very bad.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 08:59:15 05-12-2018
  • McGeeza 5 Dec 2018 09:15:21 1,924 posts
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    Played Claustrophobia for the first time on my boardgame retreat last week funnily enough.

    Great fun. Lots of dice rolling and possibly a little simplistic for some, but I'm always up for light games that don't outstay their welcome. I liked the abstracted nature of the movement as it keeps things moving along.

    Would be tempted by the new version if it was still available so glad it's not! :)
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 09:20:27 9,205 posts
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    @McGeeza

    Oh no lol. If it's that light I may have one to sell soon :)

    I have a mate at work who claims it's his favourite game of all time so I didn't actually do much research into it.

    I'll give it a good go anyway. :D
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 09:37:39 9,205 posts
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    I LOVE NOT WORKING

    This is living. Got a mate coming over today, my biggest decision for the day is which game to play! I LOVE IT
  • McGeeza 5 Dec 2018 09:47:53 1,924 posts
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    @Gregolution I only played the first scenario to be fair so it may ramp up. But the rules were easy enough to understand and not much rulebook referencing was required mid-game.
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 09:52:53 9,205 posts
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    @McGeeza

    That sounds good at least ;)

    I thought there were some interesting choices in planning out your moves as you have to allocate dice to certain actions so it's a bit puzzley?

    There are so many sales on board game houses at the moment..... I feel like getting myself something from Santa.
  • McGeeza 5 Dec 2018 11:00:24 1,924 posts
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    Itís similar to BF, but the dice rolled (one per adventurer) determine your stats for the round rather than your actions. So each adventurer starts with 6 possible stat lines but most close 1 off every time they take a wound. So it eventually leads to having to put a dice on a closed stat line which means the adventurer is exhausted and canít do anything but defend themselves.

    It was a cool system, and similar to BF in that things start to escalate if youíre not careful.
  • Gregolution 5 Dec 2018 14:04:01 9,205 posts
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    UPS dropped my Nemesis box :(. Slightly split box and a damaged miniature.

    Oh well... minis are lovely. Look forward to trying the game if I can learn it by tomorrow.
  • Nemesis 5 Dec 2018 17:48:31 19,481 posts
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    Ow.
  • Gregolution 6 Dec 2018 08:14:24 9,205 posts
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    Well I came last in the bottom table of the London on Board Terra Mystica tournament round 3 🤣.

    I love that game though. Most cutthroat euro I've played by miles but that was my first 5 player game and that turns the cutthroat to 11. Evil and genius. Fantastic game.
  • Mola_Ram 6 Dec 2018 08:19:05 18,925 posts
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    I think Terra Mystica is just a bit too much Euro for me. Maybe I need to play it with the right sort of people, but it was pretty dense when I played it.

    (Though I did win that time, which was surprising. Played as the witches)
  • StarchildHypocrethes 6 Dec 2018 09:08:23 31,946 posts
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    Terra Mystica looks like a well designed 'game' but also veeeeeeery dry.
  • Mola_Ram 6 Dec 2018 09:11:15 18,925 posts
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    This is going to seem pretty shallow, but I really do enjoy a board game more when it looks nice.

    It's my only big complaint about (to use another example) Terraforming Mars. It's a great game, but man it looks cheap.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 6 Dec 2018 09:13:23 31,946 posts
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    I don't think that's shallow. The market is far bigger and more competitive now, and considering how much a lot of games cost you shouldn't have to settle for half-arsed design and components.
  • Tonka 6 Dec 2018 09:16:53 28,767 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    This is going to seem pretty shallow, but I really do enjoy a board game more when it looks nice.
    I'm soooo guilty of this. I played Castles of Burgundy with a friend and it was so fugly and muddy and flimsy that I just don't feel like playing it again.

    The competition for boardgames are so tough now that great gameplay alone isn't enough. There are too many gorgeous and excellent games to compete with.
  • Mola_Ram 6 Dec 2018 09:19:45 18,925 posts
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    I do make an exception for Terraforming Mars, because it really is very good (especially with the expansions). But it could look nicer.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 6 Dec 2018 09:21:22 31,946 posts
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    Which expansions would you recommend for it? I've never been entirely sure if they looked worth it, but I really like the base game.
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